Tell a LEO you have a ccw

HowardCohodas · #21 06-23-2008, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeavingMass

I guess they can also arrest people for walking without their drivers license ?

Forgive my limitations, but I just don't understand the point you are trying to make.

ishi · #22 06-23-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FN1910

LEO: I am sorry sir but I clocked you at 65 in a 55 zone so I believe that you are breaking a law. Do you want to cooperate here or at the jail house?

I don't know about Arkansas but in SC the HP can and will carry you to jail for a traffic violation. If you are an out-of-state resident and get pulled if you cannot post bail you can plan on going to jail until someone can bail you out. If you are a SC resident they have the option of allowing you to continue on a personal recognizance bond. I would not try to pull your little speech on a SC Highway Patrolman. I know several of them personally and they will carry you to jail.

Minor traffic violations are not punishable by jail time in most States. At any rate, that's the risk of exercising your constitutional rights.. some thug with a badge and a god complex might decide to cart you down to the jailhouse.

Like I said, a cop can arrest you for anything at all, and simply let the judge dismiss the charge after your time has been wasted. It's called a nuisance charge, and bully cops love them. The good news is that the judge won't be so impressed by the police officer's decision, and you'll be on your way soon enough. The bad news is that it tends to disabuse people of their notions of exactly how free their country is.

This line is so ridiculous... "Do you want to cooperate here or at the jail house?" Exactly what sort of non-cooperation would this be referring to? Not consenting to an illegal search? Not answering nosy questions about where you're going? Not offering up an itemized list of everything in the vehicle? From what you're saying it sounds like SC is full of cops who are extremely unprofessional. The police where I live would be unhappy but not morally outraged by a polite insistence on your civil rights.

Sadly I may never get to test my script, since I habitually drive 10 miles under the speed limit and always use my turn signals.

FN1910 · #23 06-23-2008, 12:39 PM

Just pointing ou the fact that in your script that you tell the cop that you are not breaking any laws where speeding, failure to use turn signals etc. is breaking a law and justifies probable cause. Normally a traffic violation does not justify jail time but it can lead to it. While sitting beside the road after being stopped for speeding is no the best time to tell a LEO I am not breaking any laws so go chase thyself.

LeavingMass · #24 06-23-2008, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowardCohodas

Forgive my limitations, but I just don't understand the point you are trying to make.

that its stupid as hell to require one to tell or have their license with them when they're NOT CARRYING ( NOT DRIVING )

If a cop stop you for having a burnt-out taillight, why the hell you want to bring guns into the conversation ?
want more cops opinion ? MassCops - Massachusetts Law Enforcement Network and Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com

If a cop pulls you over and on his computer he can tell if you have a License for weapons, he should always presume you are carrying .

I have LEO family member(s) and associates, and like DrLewall said

Quote:

the LEO will perhaps look upon you as a "wannabe bragger" if you spout off that you have a permit to carry your big badass gun.

like ishi says

Quote:

As for spontaneously informing, I see no need to do that. It's best to keep your conversations with LEOs as short as possible in my opinion. Obey the letter of the law.

If an officer wants to get bent out of shape because you didn't wave your license for him at first, that's on him. And it most certainly would NOT be probable cause to search your vehicle. Probable cause means the officer has cause to believe there is evidence of a particular crime hidden in your vehicle. Since the officer knows that you have a license, even if there was a gun there, no crime would have been committed. Such a search would be a violation of the 4th amendment.

ishi · #25 06-23-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FN1910

Just pointing ou the fact that in your script that you tell the cop that you are not breaking any laws where speeding, failure to use turn signals etc. is breaking a law and justifies probable cause. Normally a traffic violation does not justify jail time but it can lead to it. While sitting beside the road after being stopped for speeding is no the best time to tell a LEO I am not breaking any laws so go chase thyself.

You're right that breaking a minor traffic law does constitute probable cause for a traffic stop - I'm not disputing that. Probable cause for a vehicle search is a whole different ball of wax.

Some things that would probably justify a vehicle search:
1) a weapon in plain sight
2) drugs or something looking like drugs, in plain sight
3) admitting you are carrying a weapon in the vehicle, even if you have a license
4) fresh red paint all over the backseat :)
5) refusing to hand over license, registration, proof of insurance
6) refusing to hand over concealed carry license if asked (yes, they already know from when they ran your plates / driver's license)

Some things that do not justify a vehicle search:
1) declining a vehicle search
2) declining to tell a police officer where you're going
3) declining to answer questions about the content of your vehicle
4) declining to answer whether you are carrying a weapon or not
4) declining to answer any question at all

They CAN ask you to step out of the car and frisk you on any stop. If you were stupid and lied about whether you had a weapon on you, and the officer finds one anyway, that might give probable cause to search the vehicle. It may also alarm the hell out of the officer and get you sent to the tank, even if your carry license is valid. These guys are only human, and a lie like that is really really creepy. If you don't want to say, then just don't answer.

Now, the police CAN legally detain you (not arrest you) for a reasonable amount of time while he tries to get probable cause to search your vehicle, and he can make you wait for a drug dog to show up and sniff you and the outside your car.

And of course, the police have the ability to make false or nuisance arrests. But good cops don't do this, only god-complex cops do this. I think there are mostly good cops out there. As long as you use a polite tone of voice and don't go out of your way to offend the officer, you should be able to claim your rights without being sent off to the tank.

Exercising your constitutional rights in the face of Authority takes courage. Nobody ever said it would be easy.

HowardCohodas · #26 06-23-2008, 07:20 PM

This thread has turned into a mystery to me. I feel like I have stepped through the looking glass, even though my name is not Alice.

Is it or is it not true that in some states you are required to announce to an LEO upon first encounter that you have a CCP and if you are currently armed? If I am reading the laws of my state correctly, this is the case. Whether or not you agree with the law, obey it or be willing to suffer the consequences. Suggesting that someone willing to obey the law lacks courage seems more like a school yard taunt then intelligent discourse.

ishi · #27 06-23-2008, 07:56 PM

I think I'm being misunderstood. I live in Arkansas, where people need not notify upon first encounter. In fact, this forum is in the Arkansas state section of the forums...

But by all means, if your state requires you to notify, do so. I don't advocate or recommend breaking the law - I only recommend retaining your rights, such as they are.

I hope this clarifies what I've been saying.

duckcallinfool · #28 07-15-2008, 03:56 PM

I just don't understand why so many people here are getting so defensive about showing an LEO their CHL. He is going to know as soon as he runs your DL anyway.

I've been stopped for breaking the law once since I got my CHL. The first time for speeding approx 15 over the speed limit. As the Trooper was pulling up, I flicked a cigarette butt out the window (I know, smart). He came up and told me he would let me get out and pick the butt up off his highway so he wouldn't have to write me a ticket for littering. I got out and picked it up. As I reapproached the truck I tossed my trash in the back and handed the officer my DL and CHL. He asked if I had my gun with me, I answered yes. He asked where my gun was, I told him. He told me to just leave it where it was and we were going to be ok. I got back in the truck, he asked for my registration and insurance. I got them for him, he went to his car, came back a couple minutes later told me to slow down and wished me a good night. Was I lucky to get stopped by a cop that wasn't a butt? Maybe. In hind sight it seems he started to be one (about the cigarette butt), but once he saw my CHL and knew I was cleared at the federal level as not being a criminal or nut case, it seemed to turn the whole situation around rapidly.

Exactly a week later, traveling the same highway, I came to a road block. The county deputy working the road block approached my truck, introduced himself and let me know the reason for the road block. He asked to see my DL, reg., and Ins. I handed him my DL and CHL and let him know where the others were located and reached across to get them. As I was reaching for them, he asked me if I knew they had changed the law about presenting LEO with the CHL and I said no, I didn't know. I just felt it was curteous to let him know I had my CHL. We ended up talking trucks sitting in the middle of the highway.

Generally speaking, anything you can do to help reduce the stress of an LEO during a routine stop will make things more pleasant for all parties involved.

As opposed to ishi's solution which turns highly irritating just daydreaming about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishi

It's true that an LEO can arrest you for any infraction at all, real or imagined. However, being cowed into compliance by the threat of a false arrest is very close to fascism in my book.

I've got my own 'script' for being stopped here in Arkansas (it would change if out of state). Here 'tis.

(me, with drivers lic, reg and insurance in hand, with windows rolled down and hands on the wheel)

LEO: driver's license, registration and insurance please?

(I hand them over)

LEO: are you carrying any drugs, firearms or dangerous items in your car today?

me: With respect officer, I'd prefer to talk about why you stopped me today, and not what I do or don't have in my vehicle.

LEO: Can you step out of the car please sir?

(I step out of the car, LEO searches me and finds my weapon at 4 o'clock, proceeds to cuff me)

LEO: Do you have a license for this?

me: Yes officer, in my wallet in my right front pocket.

(officer finds the license)

LEO: why didn't you tell me about this before?

me: There are currently around 20 states that require citizens with carry licenses to spontaneously notify LEOs. Arkansas is not one of them.

LEO (quite cranky): Do you mind if I have a look in your car sir?

me: I won't consent to that search, officer. Would you mind uncuffing me, please?

LEO: where are you driving today, sir?

me: with all respect sir, I'm only trying to get from point A to point B. I'm not breaking any laws, and I don't really feel like answering your questions. May I go now?

LEO (extremely grumpy, uncuffs me, writes out my ticket for the largest fine allowed by law for an infraction which I may or may not have commited, hands me back my weapon with the bullets removed from the magazines, and gives me a grumpy lecture on how I should act appropriately in awe of the omnipotent power of the badge the next time I'm stopped)

me: Thank you officer, have a nice day.

(the entire episode probably lasts less than an hour, and may or may not involve backup being called)

Now, let's count the number of constitutional rights I exercised above.

2nd amendment, check (keeping and bearing arms)
4th amendment, check (refusing an unreasonable search)
5th amendment, check (declining to be interrogated)

Yes, exercising your rights may not be the most convenient thing on earth, and it may take a bit of your time. It may even piss off an officer or two. But you will walk away feeling pride that you live in a free country.

-ishi

Boofreakinyah · #29 07-15-2008, 05:18 PM

A widely used and taught method of information is that if you are stopped by LE they will ask for DL, REG and proof of ins. IF you are carrying, you don't want to verbally tell the officer you are armed because his training and instinct lead him to react defensively to the word "gun". Keeping your hands open and palms up above the steering wheel, you should hand the officer your License, Registration, Insurance AND CCW paperwork without speaking. Letting him ask you if you are carrying gives him a moment to process the fact that you are legally certified to cary and that you voluntarily presented your CCW without being asked. This takes the instinct out of the equation and he will appreciate knowing that you are armed while he is dealing with you. Obviously each situation will present its own list of variables but this method used along with common sense and respect will usually get you through a traffic stop without incident.