Tell a LEO you have a ccw

[duckcallinfool]

Originally Posted by LeavingMass

"Hello officer, I know you only stopped me because I was breaking the law, but hey, I'm better than everyone else because I have a CCW license"

I see it a little different. I don't see it as bragging. As soon as he sees my CHL he knows many things about me. 1. I am not a felon. 2. I am not a mental case. 3. I am not an alcoholic. 4. I may be armed but I am not armed to harm him, or commit a crime, but rather, I am armed simply to protect myself and my family.

Imagine you are a cop and you stop a speeding vehicle on a very dark, mostly desert stretch of highway. You approach the vehicle not knowing what you will encounter. The driver politely hands you DL & CHL as soon as you request them. You instantly know what you will find out as soon as you run their DL anyway. Why not ease their stress level immediately?


"Hello officer, I know you only stopped me because I was breaking the law, but hey, I'm willing to be open and honest with you from the very beginning because I know you have to deal with some very bad people out here and I am not one of those people."

[Glock Fan]

Originally Posted by duckcallinfool

I see it a little different. I don't see it as bragging. As soon as he sees my CHL he knows many things about me. 1. I am not a felon. 2. I am not a mental case. 3. I am not an alcoholic. 4. I may be armed but I am not armed to harm him, or commit a crime, but rather, I am armed simply to protect myself and my family.

Imagine you are a cop and you stop a speeding vehicle on a very dark, mostly desert stretch of highway. You approach the vehicle not knowing what you will encounter. The driver politely hands you DL & CHL as soon as you request them. You instantly know what you will find out as soon as you run their DL anyway. Why not ease their stress level immediately?


"Hello officer, I know you only stopped me because I was breaking the law, but hey, I'm willing to be open and honest with you from the very beginning because I know you have to deal with some very bad people out here and I am not one of those people."

+1 on that. Too bad that there are some places in the U.S. where LEO think that only "bad" civilians carry guns.



gf

[LeavingMass]

Originally Posted by duckcallinfool

1: I see it a little different. I don't see it as bragging. As soon as he sees my CHL he knows many things about me. 1. I am not a felon. 2. I am not a mental case. 3. I am not an alcoholic. 4. I may be armed but I am not armed to harm him, or commit a crime, but rather, I am armed simply to protect myself and my family.

2: Imagine you are a cop and you stop a speeding vehicle on a very dark, mostly desert stretch of highway. You approach the vehicle not knowing what you will encounter. The driver politely hands you DL & CHL as soon as you request them. You instantly know what you will find out as soon as you run their DL anyway. Why not ease their stress level immediately?

3: "Hello officer, I know you only stopped me because I was breaking the law, but hey, I'm willing to be open and honest with you from the very beginning because I know you have to deal with some very bad people out here and I am not one of those people."

3: If you are stopped, you must've been breaking the law, you obviously aren't the "law abiding" citizen you spoke of in paragraph 1, so as a cop, guards should/will be up regardless if you are a CW carrier or not.

As a cop I should "believe" , "Hey he has a CCW permit, only law he breaks is speeding" .....?????

Just because "we" have a CCW permit doesn't mean we're all much better than all non-ccw carriers, but some of "us" seems to believe that.

I see it as "bragging" or trying to "get out of a ticket." Especially, since you said "You instantly know what you will find out as soon as you run their DL anyway"

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[duckcallinfool]

Glock Fan,

Apparently Massachusetts is one of those states.



LeavingMass,

I bet you have broken the speed limit in your lifetime once or twice yourself. I never said I was a fully law abiding citizen in paragraph 1. I said I am not a felon (no violent crimes), I am not a nut case, I am not a habitual drinker, and I care about the safety and security of my family and me.

So what you are saying is you would rather stop me with your guard up, adrenaline running high. Turn around and walk back to your car to call my information in. Then find out that you were at my window, while I was most likely armed and you had no idea. Rather than me simply handing you my CHL and you being able to ask me if I have my firearm with me and if so where it is immediately while you have your eyes on me in close proximity before you turn your back to me. I just don't get that. IF the officer is uncomfortable at that point and wishes to keep my firearm with him while he completes the stop, so be it. He will hear no complaint from me.

Oh yeah, just so you will be more familiar with Arkansas CHL and the Arkansas State Police, during my CHL class the instructor let us know that the Arkansas State Police had recently informed all instructors that they wanted all CHL holders to present their license if you are stopped. During my second encounter, the county deputy also imformed me that they changed to wanting to see it with your DL in a traffic stop or road block.

You do it your way, I'll do it my way. From your signature line, it looks as though you may be LEO in Massachusetts, maybe things are seen differently up there. So far so good for me down here in Arkansas. If one day I get stopped again, and the officer thinks I am bragging, then so be it. I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

[LeavingMass]

Originally Posted by duckcallinfool

Imagine you are a cop and you stop a speeding vehicle on a very dark, mostly desert stretch of highway. You approach the vehicle not knowing what you will encounter. The driver politely hands you DL & CHL as soon as you request (1) them. (2B) You instantly know what you will find out as soon as you run their DL anyway. Why not ease their stress level immediately?


"Hello officer, I know you only stopped me because I was breaking the law, but hey, I'm willing to be open and honest with you from the very beginning because I know you have to deal with(2) some very bad people out here and I am not one of those people."

2B in your above post contradicts 3 below

Originally Posted by duckcallinfool

Glock Fan,

Apparently Massachusetts is one of those states.

LeavingMass,

I bet you have broken the speed limit in your lifetime once or twice yourself. I never said I was a fully law abiding citizen in paragraph 1. I said I am not a felon (no violent crimes), I am not a nut case, I am not a habitual drinker, and I care about the safety and security of my family and me.

So what you are saying is you would rather stop me with your guard up, adrenaline running high. Turn around and walk back to your car to call my information in. Then find out that you were at my window, (3)while I was most likely armed and you had no idea. Rather than me simply handing you my CHL and you being able to ask me if I have my firearm with me and if so where it is immediately while you have your eyes on me in close proximity before you turn your back to me. I just don't get that. IF the officer is uncomfortable at that point and wishes to keep my firearm with him while he completes the stop, so be it. He will hear no complaint from me.

Oh yeah, just so you will be more familiar with Arkansas CHL and the Arkansas State Police, during my CHL class the instructor let us know that the Arkansas State Police had recently informed all instructors that they wanted all CHL holders to present their license if you are stopped. During my second encounter, the county deputy also imformed me that they changed to wanting to see it with your DL in a traffic stop or road block.

You do it your way, I'll do it my way. From your signature line, it looks as though you may be LEO in Massachusetts, maybe things are seen differently up there. So far so good for me down here in Arkansas. If one day I get stopped again, and the officer thinks I am bragging, then so be it. I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

A Cop "turning his back" on someone he just pulled over, is a very wreck-less cop.

Funny, you just got pulled over for "breaking the law" ( be it speeding, swerving, failure to stop, no headlights etc. ), but all of a sudden you claim "I am not a felon (no violent crimes), I am not a nut case, I am not a habitual drinker"

"Sorry officer, I only break motor vehicle laws. "

[Grumpy]

There has been much discussion in this thread both pro and con. Some states require that the CHL be presented to a LEO on first contact. Others don't. Never the less, when the citizen displays a courteous demeanor at the outset, the chances that the LEO will be courteous improve. These cops experience verbal confrontation day in and day out, why not surprise them.

It does, however, sound as though there are a few who are contributing to this thread who have deep pockets to pay lawyers and can't wait to delay their activities a number of hours or possibly over night at the risk of loosing their CHL. More power to you guys. I for one don't want to be the immovable object meeting the irresistible force of the guy with the badge on his chest.

[frank.macher]

Okay, I've been reading this. Not going to pot shot anyone here. I personally prefer to know I'm speaking with a person who is carrying if they are. I'm more likely to be uptight with the person I am speaking with regarding their CIVIL INFRACTION for a driving offense if they are authorized to carry and don't inform me before I run their license. Granted, I'm from Michigan, granted you have the right to refuse the search if asked, granted you have the right to keep silent. Usually, IMHO, the folks I have dealt with that have them are polite and let me know they have a permit, then I get to ask the question if they are carrying, and if yes, where it might be. It doesn't change my reason for stopping them, it gives me a better sense of whether or not to ask them to step out of the vehicle (weather also taken into consideration), leave them sitting in the car, and in the general sense of the storage of the handgun in the glove box, the paperwork may be right with it. When not informed and they open the glove box with a handgun there, it makes for a very tense response which CAN get out of hand quickly.

Now, I am not saying it is a universal policy, or that all cops most cops (insert troopers/sheriff your choice of LEO) agree, or that all are good or bad. Situations are always different in each stop, politeness is a two-way street, open dialogue is easier to deal with than civil disobedience, etc. BTW the most common issue I have to worry about is the knife that the average Joe Citizen forgets he has than those with a permit for a handgun.

I appreciate the open discourse, I also agree each side has its own merits. As a Reserve Dep. I know my partners and I are more than a little uneasy to find out someone has a permit but hasn't told us, it is a requirement in our state. Folks who are not carrying don't have to say they have a permit, but, if they are, they are supposed to announce while handing over both licenses and the other pertinent papers such as registration and insurance on the vehicle.

Nobody I've worked with has taken the Gestapo Jackboot mindset, I've seen courteous responses and thanks, I've seen them ask the driver to leave it in the glovebox, I've also seen an officer ask them to hand it over while they finish the ticket/warning, and then hand it right back.

All LEO's handle things in different manners too. Just the way you first speak to the LEO can change the entire outcome of the stop. Shouldn't, but it is common that courtesy begets courtesy where attitude is greeted with attitude.

I feel sorry for those of you who have has distasteful meetings with LEO's, all I can ask is that you don't judge all of them by the attitude of the minority.

Respectfully,

[wuzfuz]

I was an LEO in Arizona before they passed the CCW law, when only a police officer or someone in the military could carry concealed, in connection with their duties. I also later had a CCW permit in Arizona, and received education at a Security Academy in California. In Arizona, you are required to inform an officer immediately if you are carrying with a permit. Most often, he will ask you where it is and tells you to stand very still while HE retrieves the weapon and unloads it. Sometimes he will ask to see the permit, which you must produce with a photo ID, such as a Driver's License, and that is all. As a former officer, I know if I approached a person and was formulating what I would say, I got irritated if they began talking, regardless of what they were saying. I am going to be getting a CCW permit in Washington, now that we have moved here, and they have no requirement to inform the officer you are carrying, but they recommend it as a courtesy. In Arizona, you have to take a 32 hour course which inclludes firing a qualification round on the range. Apparently, in Washington, you pay the fee and give two sets of prints, and the Chief of Police or Sheriff MUST issue you a license within 30 days, or 60 days if you have been in the state less than 90 days, and you have passed the background check. I think I would prefer that a person carrying a deadly weapon be trained in it's use and circumstances uner which he/she can use it. In Californis, on the back of your permit is a list of the guns you are allowed to carry. Arizona does not even use the word firearm, as they recognize that some people might prefer a concealed knife.

[wuzfuz]

Ishi,

The courts have consistently supported the right of an officer to inquire if a person is armed, for his own protection. I was a deputy sheriff in Arizona and I often asked people if they were armed, and I was allowed by the Supreme Court to conduct a pat down search of anyone I was speaking to. Our County Attorney informed us that if a person refused to answer if he was armed or tried to refuse a pat down search to locate any weapons, he/she was to be charged with Obstructing Governmental Operations, as allowed in the Arizona Revised Statutes Criminal Code (Title 13). I never had any real problem when the person understood I was acting for my own protection, as he would probably do if the situation were reversed. As you point out, no law is being broken unless the person is carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, which was reduced a couple of years ago to a petty offense, which means a fine only, no jail. Obstructing does get you jail time as it is a Class One Misdemeanor, which means up to a year in the County Jail.

[duckcallinfool]

LeavingMass,

This thread has caused much confusion based on our personal feelings about notifying an officer. In the future please make sure you are informed of the proper ARKANSAS laws before posting on the ARKANSAS Forum.

I just searched through the forums on Arkansas CCA's website and have found the correct answer to the situation that was brought up at the beginning of this post. For all of those reading out there, Arkansas Concealed Carry Association works very closely with the Arkansas State Police and the Arkansas General Assembly on increasing the rights of CHL holders in the state.

Just for clarification on the actual law. Here is a post from the Grant Exton, Executive Director of the Arkansas Concealed Carry Association.

http://http://arkansascca.org/forum/...1,25,33#msg-33

Re: Poll: How do the police feel about CHL in your area?
Posted by: Grant Exton (IP Logged)
Date: September 06, 2007 03:32PM


It's great to see the participation on the forum...this was our intent...information disemination and communication within the CHL community.

A few points to add on this topic.
1. Remember, as of July 31st, ACT 419 was changed this past legislature to require CHL holders to present their CHL license and ID whenever ID is requested by law enforcement...not just when a law-enforcement officer specifically asks for your CHL license.

2. As the Executive Director of ARCCA, I interact with the ASP on a weekly basis and have been very pleased with their level of knowledge concerning concealed carry law. I believe most other local law-enforcement is not very familiar with CHL law for the very point that they don't have to be...they are very rarely dealing with CHL holders who are committing offenses...and this is the positive flip side of thier deficient knowledge level.

3. 87% of all violent crime is committed outside the home...the realm of the CHL holder, and very little occurs while you are inside your vehicle...if you are only carrying while in your vehicle, you are taking a big risk.

Take care, and much thanks for the selfless work our law enforcement members do for us every day.

Grant Exton
ARCCA, Executive Director