New CCP holder- interesting discussion I saw.. I was on another forum, where a guy- a legitimate CCP holder- was pulled over for speeding.
He stated he had his Drivers License, and his CCP permit on him and handed them to the officer, whereas the officer told him to put his hands on the steering wheel, went to the passenger side of the vehicle, opened the door and proceeded to disarm him. The officer took the clip, unfed the magazine, and put the gun on the top of the roof. He then went and ran the OP's info.
I personally was told in my training you do EXACTLY what the officer wants, even if it means being put in handcuffs, then let your lawyer deal with any misappropriate behavior on the part of the officer.
I guess what shook me a little are the replies the OP recieved when he posted he felt a little violated by what happened. Some replies-from Law Enforcement themselves- suggested they could whatever they wanted- that having a CCP gave the owner no significant rights as a law abiding, background clear, concealed carry citizen. There were also replies to the OP's post stating they had heard some officers had even thrown legitimate CCP owners weapons on the ground while disarming the carrier.
Is this true? If I get pulled while concealed carrying, am I at the mercy of a policeman who is going to have fun throwing my gun up on the roof of my car for no reason? Does having a CCP give me any rights whatsoever to not have my gun confiscated or taken from me if I've done nothing wrong, and properly identified myself as a CCP holder?
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I can only speak from my experiences in Ohio. Ohio is a must notify state and the LEO has the authority to take possession of the weapon during the stop and return it to you at the completion of the stop, barring a legitamate reason to confiscate, The option is his to take, but in most cases he will not take the weapon during the stop
Any officer that takes the weapon from a legal CCP holder is in his rights I guess but that doesn't mean he is a complete AH!!! What would be the reason to do that? Make it good because warrants out or not, pissed off or not, the legal operator did show the LEO the permit. If he had bad intentions would he have shown him the permit or the barrel?
Might as well take every operator out of their car and strip search them!
So if you are a bad guy and get pulled over the LEO finds out the hard way he is carrying. I really don't get it.
How many LEOs actually have experience with a 1911? I am sure if while disarming you and the gun if he was negligent and your gun discharged he would own up to his mistake especially if someone was hurt. Having someone else fumble around with your gun, you know the one you are totally responsible for is just another instance you are at risk and have no control! It's all BS!
Speaking from experience in Michigan and as LEO, it is 100% within an officer's rights to do this. However, it is unusual unless the person fits a description of someone who has committed a crime or something of the like. As a LEO, really it doesn't matter if a person is a CPL holder or not, every LEO would presumably treat every traffic stop as if the person was armed and willing to do harm.
Any LEO that wants me disarmed, can ask. I will politely keep the LEO informed of my actions and intents while I disarm myself.
Any LEO that attempts to disarm me will be treated like any other armed assailant. Under Florida law, the officer in the described scenario committed an assault.
Interesting.Originally Posted by wolfhunter
What Florida law would the policeman be breaking as related to concealed carry? Is there a statute?
Also, I found out in my story above, the OP was in PA. Isn't this an open carry state?
Sorry, while pulling up a reference I found that I crossed up Florida's statutory definitions of assault & battery. Under Florida statutes an officer that takes a weapon off my person would be guilty of Battery.
784.03 Battery; felony battery.--
(1)(a) The offense of battery occurs when a person:
1. Actually and intentionally touches or strikes another person against the will of the other; or
2. Intentionally causes bodily harm to another person.
(b) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person who commits battery commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
Yea Kinda agree with that. If in the process of making a firearm safe especially one he or she may not be familiar with, the officer discharges the weapon and injures themselves or you, who would be at fault? Tough call. I could see asking you to exit the vehicle and cuffing you if that made them feel safer. I would rather not have the officer try the gun handling thing with my weapon. I know they would feel the same if I suggested they allow me to safe their weapon.
Just my 2 pennies out there for public rebuke...
Peace...
You can give peace a chance alright..
I'll seek cover in case it goes badly..
I find that most of these discussions and stories posted about bad interactions with LEO like in the cases described in the OP to be dramatic exaggerations os what happened along with leaving out a lot of the details of what led up to all of that. There will be some "bad" stops where a LEO has just had a very bad day so far and is letting his emotions get the better of him and there is going to be some rookies that are scared out of their pants over the thought of a private citizen having a gun. Both of these are in the small minority. You hear of these but not the hundreds of others that go off witout a hitch.
By having a CWP/CCW/CPL you do not give up any rights that you had before you had one. When you get pulled over by the police for any violation such as speeding most people start yelling about they are a law abiding citizen and should be treated as one. If you are a law abiding citizen why did you get pulled over? When you get pulled over you are no longer a law abiding citizen, you have just become a 'criminal", I know there is a difference but technically you are a law breaker. When the LEO walks up to your car he does not know what to expect. You show him your DL, CPL and tell him that you have a gun on your hip. Remember that you having a gun has no bearing on your case that you were driving 75 in a 55 zone. The LEO has every right to fear for his safety and take actions. That does not mean that he can grab you up by the collar and throw you on the ground to be handcuffed. However it does mean that he can take reasonable precautions.
This is where the discussions get confusing. Some officers may tell you to slowly exit the car and then either remove your gun or they try to remove. If so far you haven't given the LEO any indication that he should fear you then if he has any knowledge of guns and holsters he should probably tell you to remove it as you may have some kind of retention holster etc. I think it would be dumb of an officer to try and walk around the car and remove your gun from the passenger side himself. Maybe he is ignorant or stupid. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity cannot. Any way the officer has lots of options and will probably learn the best way with experience and training.
Now we get to the next situation. Officer pulls you over for doing 75 in a 55 zone and walks up to you window. When he get there you are sitting with your hands on the steering wheel and before he says anything you ask "Am I being detained"! He says, "Do you know how fast your were going?" and you respond with, "Officer, how fast to you think I was going and any other questions you will have to ask my lawyer". I know that this is a littel exaggeration but youget the picture and see that these two stops are going to have different outcomes.
Many years ago I was discussing the carrying of a gun in the glove compartment here in SC with several lawyers over a beer or twelve. One said that he carried a gun in his glove box and if he got stopped the first thing he would say is, "Officer, there is a gun in my glove box, I do not want to get shot, I have no intention nor desire to shoot you and will do my best to keep either one from happening. My registration and insurance information is also in the glove box. Now how owuld you like me to proceed and I will fully cooperate". I know several will point out thing wrong with this, especially having your registration in your glove box along with your gun but the important thing is to let the LEO know that you have a gun and no intention of using it. As some say standing beside a busy highway during a traffic stop is not the best time to argue with a LEO about your rights. Save that for the courtroom.
Had a buddy get out of a ticket because he was stopped on the small shoulder of a busy highway. He simply stated, "Officer, before we proceed any further, would you like to drive a little bit further down the road so we can get ourselves out of harm's way here?" The LEO was apparently shocked by the idea that the person he pulled over was actually concerned for the safety of both of them, so he ended up with a warning.
Not always going to work, but the best thing is to be polite, professional, and mature.
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