Robbery Scenario

[Deserteagle]

Lets say you are walking down the street with your wife or husband. As you pass an alley, a large man steps out in front of you and demands you give him your wallet and jewelry. He has a pistol in his right hand and is pointing it at you sideways while motioning with his left hand to cough up your wallet or he will kill you. Nobody else is in the immediate area. You have your loaded gun in a IWB holster at 5 O'Clock.
Now here is where I want your input. Are you going to:
1. Instantly start running away and assume your wife is planning on doing the same.
2. Give him your wallet, take off you watch, give him your wife's purse, and assume he will let you go?
3. Attempt to pull your gun and defend yourself even though the bad guy has his weapon already pointed at you.

Here is the problem: You dont know if he is planning on killing his witnesses (you and your wife) after robbing them. If you comply with his requests, you become a victim and your concealed carry gun you train with every month becomes a worthless hunk of junk in your waistband. If he doesnt kill you, the police probably wont spend too much time trying to get your wallet back for you. However, if you try using your gun, you risk your wife and yourself getting shot before you can sucsessfully draw a line and fire. Then again, if you do nothing, what does that say to your wife who expects you to be defending her with that pistol you had to convince her is important to carry. And what if you dont try pulling your gun and he takes your wallet, and fires a round that hits your wife as he runs off.
Your thoughts?
I think I would probably pull out my wallet, drop it on the ground or toss it to him to distract him as he tries to catch it, and run away, although its tough because you cant secretly tell your wife to run at the same time as you. Or of course I could try pulling my gun out while he is distracted.

[tuts40]

He has a gun pointed at you. Pretty much says it all unless you are a practicing 3rd degree black belt in a fighting discipline that is more concerned about doling out pain than doing forms perfectly, and have practiced this scenario hundreds and hundreds of times!

I dunno, maybe a good idea to carry a small 9mm in a wallet holster in rear pocket and PRACTICE drawing and shooting quickly? You know, as if you were gunna get him your wallet.

Let's hear from the experts...

[Grognard Gunny]

The problem with "He's got the drop on you scenarios" is that your options are very limited.

Whatever action you chose to take (or not take) MAY just be the last you ever contemplate.

The "experts" can say what they want, but in this instance, it's probably going to be "to each his own" and hope for the best, or, at least, survival.

GG

[Phillip Gain]

All right; let's try to dissect this thing:

He has a pistol in his right hand and is pointing it at you sideways while motioning with his left hand to cough up your wallet or he will kill you.

Why even mention that the attacker was pointing the firearm sideways? Are you trying to paint a picture of a particular type of individual? It is not relevant. The bullet fires where the muzzle is pointed, no matter how the butt of the gun is oriented.

Now here is where I want your input. Are you going to:
1. Instantly start running away and assume your wife is planning on doing the same.

To instantly start running would be foolish. Good chance you'll get shot.

2. Give him your wallet, take off you watch, give him your wife's purse, and assume he will let you go?

Yes, you should give up your wallet and valuables. Let's face it, most of us don't have thousands of dollars in our wallet, nor are we wearing thousands of dollars in jewelry. Nothing you own is worth your life.

You cannot ASSUME he'll let you go. But there's a chance he will. If nothing else, having more crap in his hands might distract him.

3. Attempt to pull your gun and defend yourself even though the bad guy has his weapon already pointed at you.

- How good is your situational awareness?
- Can you instantly ascertain whether his safety is on?
- If it is a revolver, can you instantly ascertain whether the cylinders are loaded?
- Does he have it pointed at you, or your spouse?
- How fast do you think you can draw? Are you confidend that you can (at least) access, pull, rotate, disengage safety, and fire before he gets his shot off?

As to the rest, it is ego-driven crap:

Here is the problem: You dont know if he is planning on killing his witnesses (you and your wife) after robbing them. If you comply with his requests, you become a victim and your concealed carry gun you train with every month becomes a worthless hunk of junk in your waistband.

You "became a victim" the moment the guy stepped out in front of you and pointed his firearm. The gun isn't a "worthless hunk of junk in your waistband." The nature of the firearm hasn't changed. There simply are circumstances when it is not the optimal tool to be brought to bear.

If he doesnt kill you, the police probably wont spend too much time trying to get your wallet back for you. However, if you try using your gun, you risk your wife and yourself getting shot before you can sucsessfully draw a line and fire.

So what if the police may not be diligent in recovering your stolen property? IT IS NOT WORTH YOUR LIFE. You can earn back the couple hundred dollars that was in your wallet. And you can make a few calls to get your credit cards and IDs replaced. It's a few hours' inconvenience. And NONE OF THIS should be a factor at all as to whether or not you choose to defend yourself.

The risk to your wife and yourself manifested as soon as the attacker pointed his gun at you. See my response above about drawing and firing. Why ask the question twice??

Then again, if you do nothing, what does that say to your wife who expects you to be defending her with that pistol you had to convince her is important to carry. And what if you dont try pulling your gun and he takes your wallet, and fires a round that hits your wife as he runs off.

If your spouse thinks less of you because your call was to NOT draw and fire...then your spouse needs to get some education into the psychological, legal, and financial consequences of self-defense. Even when it's justified.

"Looking bad in front of your significant other" SHOULD NEVER BE A FACTOR IN WHETHER TO ACT (OR NOT ACT) IN SELF-DEFENSE.

No matter how you structure the hypothetical situation, it all boils down to this:

You are justified in bringing deadly force to bear if you reasonably believe that your life and safety are in danger; or if you factually know that the life and safety of someone else are in danger.

No two situations are alike. You may have only a few seconds to evaluate a myriad of information, and make a decision that will most certainly affect you - for better or worse - for the rest of your life.

While hypothetical situations such as these can be useful...they should be approached from the persepctive of sorting relevant vs irrelevant information; being aware of what information is missing, and considering ways to acquire it; and meditating on ways to set your ego aside, and do what needs to be done to survive the encounter.

And as I've said in previous posts...THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS. There is no magic secret sequence of moves. In any scenario where your attacker has the drop on you...there is a REALLY GOOD CHANCE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO COME OUT OF IT BLEEDING, whether or not you are able to bring force to bear. Accept that. Get your head around it. Then learn and train accordingly.

[KCD1974]

I'm glad I pocket carry....that opens my options here a bit as I don't have to reach back and draw. I don't often carry any other way, but even when I do, I still pocket carry. Because it is a very natural place to put your hand and despite what I've read, it is a VERY fast draw so long as you are not sitting down....

[Firefighterchen]

The problem with "He's got the drop on you scenarios" is that your options are very limited.

Whatever action you chose to take (or not take) MAY just be the last you ever contemplate.

The "experts" can say what they want, but in this instance, it's probably going to be "to each his own" and hope for the best, or, at least, survival.

GG

While I agree hypothetical scenarios such as this one have limited options, that is the most common kind of attack, we don't get to pick the moment we are attacked, the moment picks us, and we will only have limited options. Our options in most self defense situations basically boil down to how much loss are you going to take, and taking 0 loss is slim to none.

To the OP:
This is what I would do, and it's based off of my Uncles advice as an LAPD officer when I asked him a similar scenario. I carry 2 wallets, my real wallet (carries the important stuff and is less than a half inch thick, keep it in on the front of my body, unnoticable), and a receipt wallet (looks like its full of all the goodies). If this scenario was exactly how you described it, I would throw the reciept wallet towards him and when he broke his attention I would draw and fire. He has threatened my wifes life and my life when he pointed a firearm at me, no more questions, no more warnings, he has made his choice, I have made mine. I was a bit surprised my Uncle said he would draw and fire, but he explained there have been way to many people killed after they complied with the robber. I will not let my wife die that way. Change any part of your scenario and my answer would change, but you gave a specific scenario and I gave a specific answer.

If someone wants to call me a macho internet commando ninja, go ahead, I will be all of that and more for my wife if someone tries to kill her. I love my wife, and I will give it everything I have to defend her, that includes all my ninja stars.

[Deserteagle]

All right; let's try to dissect this thing:



Why even mention that the attacker was pointing the firearm sideways? Are you trying to paint a picture of a particular type of individual? It is not relevant. The bullet fires where the muzzle is pointed, no matter how the butt of the gun is oriented.



To instantly start running would be foolish. Good chance you'll get shot.



Yes, you should give up your wallet and valuables. Let's face it, most of us don't have thousands of dollars in our wallet, nor are we wearing thousands of dollars in jewelry. Nothing you own is worth your life.

You cannot ASSUME he'll let you go. But there's a chance he will. If nothing else, having more crap in his hands might distract him.




- How good is your situational awareness?
- Can you instantly ascertain whether his safety is on?
- If it is a revolver, can you instantly ascertain whether the cylinders are loaded?
- Does he have it pointed at you, or your spouse?
- How fast do you think you can draw? Are you confidend that you can (at least) access, pull, rotate, disengage safety, and fire before he gets his shot off?

As to the rest, it is ego-driven crap:



You "became a victim" the moment the guy stepped out in front of you and pointed his firearm. The gun isn't a "worthless hunk of junk in your waistband." The nature of the firearm hasn't changed. There simply are circumstances when it is not the optimal tool to be brought to bear.



So what if the police may not be diligent in recovering your stolen property? IT IS NOT WORTH YOUR LIFE. You can earn back the couple hundred dollars that was in your wallet. And you can make a few calls to get your credit cards and IDs replaced. It's a few hours' inconvenience. And NONE OF THIS should be a factor at all as to whether or not you choose to defend yourself.

The risk to your wife and yourself manifested as soon as the attacker pointed his gun at you. See my response above about drawing and firing. Why ask the question twice??



If your spouse thinks less of you because your call was to NOT draw and fire...then your spouse needs to get some education into the psychological, legal, and financial consequences of self-defense. Even when it's justified.

"Looking bad in front of your significant other" SHOULD NEVER BE A FACTOR IN WHETHER TO ACT (OR NOT ACT) IN SELF-DEFENSE.

No matter how you structure the hypothetical situation, it all boils down to this:

You are justified in bringing deadly force to bear if you reasonably believe that your life and safety are in danger; or if you factually know that the life and safety of someone else are in danger.

No two situations are alike. You may have only a few seconds to evaluate a myriad of information, and make a decision that will most certainly affect you - for better or worse - for the rest of your life.

While hypothetical situations such as these can be useful...they should be approached from the persepctive of sorting relevant vs irrelevant information; being aware of what information is missing, and considering ways to acquire it; and meditating on ways to set your ego aside, and do what needs to be done to survive the encounter.

And as I've said in previous posts...THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS. There is no magic secret sequence of moves. In any scenario where your attacker has the drop on you...there is a REALLY GOOD CHANCE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO COME OUT OF IT BLEEDING, whether or not you are able to bring force to bear. Accept that. Get your head around it. Then learn and train accordingly.

Let me offer a rebuttal since it seems like you were more critical and "holier than thou" rather than helpful. I would expect an instructor to offer ideas on how to handle the situation rather than say everything that is wrong and "crap" with a fictional scenario.

Mentioning the attacker has his gun pointed sideways is critical information. It shows the attacker has a lack of knowledge on how to properly use a firearm. It also shows that the odds he will hit what he wants to hit will be slightly diminished as he cannot properly align the sights on his target. Am I trying to paint a picture of a particular individual? Yep, a criminal that acquired a gun and doesnt quite know how to use it, but none the less, is still a threat because he has one.
With this said, running becomes a legitimate option since the attacker will likely have a much harder time hitting a moving target while not even holding the gun right.
I simply presented a scenario and a few solutions off the top of my head. Any scenario you are presented with in real life is not going to be perfect, and it sure as heck will have tons of "non relevant" factors in it and in my opinion, whether you think so or not, thoughts of your family member next to you will definitely be running through your head. (I dont have a wife btw, I thought this would be more interesting than saying you were alone).
Regarding a robbery in general, I dont think the money is the problem. It's what the robber does after taking the money. If he points a gun at you, he may very well be willing to kill you to eliminate his witness. There is a smaller but important issue with the fact that he would have your address, but its not as important as his decision to kill you or let you live after robbing you.
Regarding the fictional wife, I never said anything about what she thinks of you. I said she expects you to be her first line of defense.
It is also obvious that we are justified in using force here. The question I asked is whether or not you will choose to, and if so, how?

At the end you say I should accept that there is a good chance I will come out bleeding, but I do not accept that. Nobody should accept being hurt or being killed. It sure as heck may happen to any of us, but I wont take that as acceptable. A synonym for acceptable is satisfactory. Would you consider coming out bleeding as satisfactory? I wouldnt. Its better than dying, but it's not satisfactory in my book. I think people coming together and discussing ideas, talking about tactics, and doing some real training/practice will get us to the point that being killed or almost killed is not a satisfactory result.

[Deserteagle]

While I agree hypothetical scenarios such as this one have limited options, that is the most common kind of attack, we don't get to pick the moment we are attacked, the moment picks us, and we will only have limited options. Our options in most self defense situations basically boil down to how much loss are you going to take, and taking 0 loss is slim to none.

To the OP:
This is what I would do, and it's based off of my Uncles advice as an LAPD officer when I asked him a similar scenario. I carry 2 wallets, my real wallet (carries the important stuff and is less than a half inch thick, keep it in on the front of my body, unnoticable), and a receipt wallet (looks like its full of all the goodies). If this scenario was exactly how you described it, I would throw the reciept wallet towards him and when he broke his attention I would draw and fire. He has threatened my wifes life and my life when he pointed a firearm at me, no more questions, no more warnings, he has made his choice, I have made mine. I was a bit surprised my Uncle said he would draw and fire, but he explained there have been way to many people killed after they complied with the robber. I will not let my wife die that way. Change any part of your scenario and my answer would change, but you gave a specific scenario and I gave a specific answer.

If someone wants to call me a macho internet commando ninja, go ahead, I will be all of that and more for my wife if someone tries to kill her. I love my wife, and I will give it everything I have to defend her, that includes all my ninja stars.

That's a good idea, thanks for your input.

[luv2shoot]

I do the same as FFChen, carry two wallets: one with absolute minimum, other with everything else.

As for the OP scenario, I'd toss the wallet and at least become a shield. After that, not sure, but if the BG doesn't leave soon enough, I'll have to work out a distraction/draw/fire.

As for the possibility of this particular scenario, I purposely do whatever I can to avoid it. I'll observe an area before approaching it and I may open my cover garment ahead of time. Where I live, OC is legal and uncovering isn't a problem. I'm considering more frequent OC after thinking about the "element of surprise" is more like the element of LATE.

[Kimber1911]

You can never practice the exact situation you may encounter. Adrenalin etc. changes everything. PRACTICE...PRACTICE...PRACTICE drawing your weapon and firing. Get comfortable doing this. Next..look for an opportunity, it will never happen the same way twice. If you drop the wallet and the guy is cracked out, he may fire because you pissed him off.
Look over his shoulder as if someone is approaching. This may distract him. OC is legal in my state and I do so regularly. Some say it makes you a target, some say its a deterrent.
The best defense is a good offense. Walk as far away from a wall as possible to limit BG angle of approach. BE AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS.
It doesn't matter where you wear your weapon as long as you can access it quickly and smoothly. PRACTICE! Ok...ankle holders and belly bands are a bad idea.
If I'm wearing a suit, a shoulder holster works, as my wallet would be in my inside breast pocket. As was stated earlier, natural movement is key.
If I'm wearing a windbreaker a pancake holster is the ticket. Also make certain your holster draws clean and smooth. Did I mention practice. I practice my draw in front of a mirror.