CCW Incident (Input please)

[milesihrig]

Hello Everyone,

I was in a CCW incident on September 9th in which i was charged wtih CCW and M1. I have court tomorrow morning and my lawyer and I think its best if we try to settle for a plea agreement of disorderly conduct which can be expunged from my clean record in a years time. Any input, comments, questions, suggestions, or help would be greatly apprecitative. Thank you
Also what would you of done if you were in my shoes... i actually had a sherriff outside the court room the first appearance tell me i should of shot the attacker. which i dont agree with

Stated below is the event that took place at approximately 9:00pm at thortons gas station in Cincinnati ohio on Friday September 29th that lead me to the charge of first degree aggravated menacing and carrying a concealed weapon.


I do admit I made the mistake of not having my ccw license on me, as I have been had multiple LEO encounters since acquiring my CCW, I have not once been asked for it after identifying to the officer that I have a CCW permit and am or am not armed, however that is no excuse not to carry. After running my license the officers saw that I was a valid CCW permit holder.

I am carrying a Para Ordinance 1911 45. Caliber pistol in “small of back” position with an inside the waist band non-retention type holster, with a spare mag on my left side and a pocket knife on my right front pocket. Every response that I made was a reaction of muscle memory that I have acquired through advanced CCW training.

I received a copy of the police report that I was not able to look over or review that night, but my statement written by the police officer was not completely accurate to what I told him. I did not read the police report that night and was unaware of the officers statement, only that he told me that I was going to look like the bad guy. I was completely compliant with the officers during the investigation as I knew I did nothing wrong. As stated in police report, I did not say anything to the “victim” before the incident started. Also noted I never told the police officer that I would of shot the man if he came any closer. I told him that it was not a black and white answer of what I would of done if he came any closer, as there are too many situations that did not occur that would lead to my decision whether or not to fire. Due to my CCW training, I did not have to fire my weapon but only used it as a non-lethal brandishing device to prevent the victim from attacking me

Incident:
I left home depot and on my way home, I saw my friend Joesph “Ross” Brueggue at thorntons gas station around 9:00 pm. Ross and I was getting together a group of people for the memorial service on Sunday at my church so I pulled in to talk to him about it. We were talking for about 5 minutes with a few friends of his parked next to us when a man walked out of the store and got into a black pickup truck. I saw the gentleman back up and slowly creep along with the driver staring at us. I did not give any dirty looks, or say anything, but only preformed my training of situational awareness keeping an eye on the truck as it cruised towards us. My friend Ross, which I did not know at the time, mumbled to himself, “what are you starring at” as myself and none of the other witnesses heard this. I later learned this information after reading a written statement from ross in the police report I obtained on Monday September 12th and talking to him.

As the truck passed by us, he threw his truck into park, squealing the tires, blocking in my truck parked in the parking space from behind. The driver then opened the driver side store and stormed out approaching us yelling in a hostile manner “WHAT THE **** DID YOU JUST SAY TO ME!”. I turned around a looked at the driver, who I have never seen or met before, and calmly told him that nobody said anything to you. He replied with the statement, “no big man (I assume he is referring to me since I am the biggest one of my friends) what the **** did you say to me. I said nobody said anything to you man. Nobody here is going to fight you. Just get back in your truck and leave. He replied No somebody said something and Im gonna beat there ass. The driver kept exchanging words with us as he got closer and closer acting very hostile and violent. I told the driver, “nobody is hear is going to fight you. I’m warning you don’t come any closer. The driver then fastly approached towards me. I felt that he was going to physically attack me and before getting into a physical fight with him that could result in a lethal outcome, I drew my weapon and put the driver at gunpoint, yelling at him in a firm tone of voice, “get back, get in your truck and drive away”
Note this person had my truck blocked in so I was unable to get into my truck and drive away

My adrenaline was already going from when he came out of the truck screaming. When he refused to get back in the truck and drive away wanting to fight people, this is when I realized this is serious and somebody could get hurt. The driver was about 15 feet from me and kept getting closer. While my time training we learned of the 21 feet rule, and that is that a person can stab someone from 21 feet away before someone could draw there weapon from an outside the waistband holster and fire to stop that persons attack. When I come to realize this I also began to wonder…

Who is this person and why is he trying to hurt me?

Is this person mentally sane or is he high on drugs like pcp that can provide superior strength and aggression?

Is this person armed? Does he have a knife on him or a gun in the truck? What is his criminal background?

Is this person alone or is some of his friends going to drive by, see him fighting and join the fight?

Location: The home depot I just came from was robbed a little over a month ago. Police had suspects at gun point across the street a few weeks ago. There was a police chopper hovering in the area a hour ago. This is not the best part of town to be in.
I saw that I had three options
1) I can remain holstered and covered as he becomes more aggressive, inducing the risk of him charging at me, not knowing of his strength, possibly knock me unconscious or get into a struggle with him and have my weapon used against me.
2) Remain holstered and the driver charges at me, possibly pulling out a deadly weapon in attempt to kill me and I fire my weapon hopefully stopping the attempted attack
3) I draw my weapon and put the suspect at gunpoint, taking my defensive stand, telling the driver to back up, get back in the truck, and drive away, reducing the risk of him unhosltering my weapon from my non-rentention holster in a struggle and using it on me, and allowing me a better chance to defend myself with my weapon if he charged at me with a lethal means of attack.

• In my ccw training, we learned of the two types of self defense; lethal and non lethal and the laws behind it… Even though I was unaware if the driver had any weapons on him or not, I was in fear of bodily harm being caused to me. In my CCW Class we did drills of being attacked and learned when have the right to pull your weapon to stop an attack from happening and when you have the right to fire your weapon. I used my weapon and my voice as a non lethal weapon that prevented the driver from attacking me. I am aware of my guns operation with safeties and trigger pull poundage and never once was my finger on the trigger.

• I have also taken multiple advance reality based self defense seminars with John Fischer of Fischer security solutions. John has training, military, police, and civilian personnel for years and his training is top of the line. In his semenairs we have learned to defend ourselves from attackers (armed or unarmed), counter attacking, moving off the line and getting to our weapon. As stated before everything that happened that night was a result of muscle memory from hours of Advanced CCW Training.

After drawling my weapon, The driver stopped charging and stepped back, then went off about me pulling a gun on him, saying “all you young kids are ******* with your CCW and you wont fight me. I want you to step out in the parking lot and brawl. I know who you all are and you can bet ill be back up here to beat your ass.” I reached for my phone to call 911 but it was in the truck charging. I yelled back at Ross to call 911 and get the cops down here. The driver then said Ill call 911. He went back near his truck and was on the phone. I stepped back and holstered my weapon, not wanting it to be outside the holster when police arrive unless absolutely necessary, still keeping an eye on the driver making sure he didn’t reach for any weapons.

I waited for the police to arrive and when they did, I approached them with hands clear in sight. I told the officer I have a CCW and a pistol holstered in my mid back. I turned around, inner laced my fingers and let the officer disarm me and make the weapon safe.

I told the officer of the keltec handgun in my glovebox and the pocket knife and a spare magazine I had on me. I was detained by a Hamilton county sherriff while the green township officer preformed his investigation. He came back to me and said following his investigation, he didn’t think that my life was threatened and he was placing me under arrest, revoking my CCW permit, and charging me with CCW and first degree aggravated menacing.

While in the back of the police vehicle the officer asked me why am I carrying such a large handgun and a spare mag. That it’s a CCW and your handgun isn’t supposed to be huge. I replied to the officer this is the gun that I feel most comfortable carrying and when you hear about events like Tucson Arizona, Virginia tech, and data statistics of violent people on drugs, it doesn’t hurt to have a spare mag or a large caliber gun. I said to the officer it is a large gun, but I can conceal it without printing, and it is legal for me to carry. Back at the police station the officer test fired the weapon which I didn’t feel was necessary as there were no shots fired at the scene of the “crime”, but I didn’t make a deal about it.

Here is the outcome that I see. When the driver charged at me, I felt that my life was being threatened with bodily harm. Talking to the officers, I was still shaking from the situation. I have an unknown attacker coming at me for a reason I don’t know, blocking my truck in, trapping me in my current location. I am unaware of his current state of mind, drug use, if hes armed, and if hes alone. I am not in the best part of town and am aware of incidents happening in the area. While the driver kept coming at me, I was in fear of my bodily harm towards myself and I drew my weapon and prevented a physical attack from occurring. I was safe with my weapon with checking the background and trigger guard control. I am glad that no shots were fired and nobody got hurt.

While being processed in the Hamilton county jail, a few people that knew me that worked down there was surprised to see me and asked what I was doing down there. I explained the situation and they showed me a picture of the driver asking if that was him. After I identified him I saw that he had a background of theft, aggravated and felonious assault, domestic violence, and other charges. They said he is a regular face down at the county jail.

After spending the night down in the county jail, putting my life in further jeapordy being in a room with violent animals, I realized how ferocious criminals in this city can be and it is every reason to have a carry conceal permit and carry with you everywhere you legally can.

After appearing in court, I was bonded out at 1306.00 dollars with credit card interest. The police have in custody a para ordiance 1911 45 and spare mag valued at 1200 dollars, a keltec pf9 9mm valued at 350, and a legal folding pocket knife valued at 50 dollars. I was unable to get back my keltec pf9 and pocket knife that I use for work after released from court, even though they were not used in the “crime”. After lawyer fees, time away from work, and possession of my weapons, this is a very costly matter to me which I feel that I should of never been charged with.

The fact of the matter is that the driver slammed his truck into park, preventing me from getting in my truck and driving away, opened the door and came at me in a hostile manner making threats wanting to fight me, and eventually charging at me putting me in fear of bodily harm to myself. I have never been one to fight and I did try to de-esclade the situation by telling the driver that nobody said anything to you. Nobody is fighting, however the drivers behavior became more violent. I can only wonder what the outcome could have been if I didn’t draw my weapon putting the driver at gun point and preventing him from attacking me. My decisions, as a result of my standard and advanced CCW training, prevented bodily harm to myself, as well as the driver that was attacking me, that could of resulted in a lethal outcome.

[Keykutter]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and as you tell it, one guy confronting two is not winning a fist fight? The guy had yet to pull a knife or a gun and as you put it, you are a pretty big guy, at least bigger than the other with you.

As in any scenario stated on this forum, if you are not there, you can't really make an educated call.

That is what I perceived in reading your account. Another situation in another place makes no difference, except in your mindset.

Good luck, but I don't think I would cop a plea if I didn't feel guilty and let the chips fall. But....that's why you pay lawyers for their guidance.

KK

[milesihrig]

2 on one in a fist fight does not mean anything... here in cincinnati, fights occur all the time... I myself have been in a self defense sitatuion where i was unarmed and had to fight off 4 attackers.Thanks to my martial arts training, i was able to come out with minimual injuries and the attackers were arrest and convicted. However, carrying a weapon, the last thing i wanted to do was get into a physical scuffle with the attacker.

Another time i saw a fight break out where it was one and one and all of a sudden i saw 3 of the bad guys thug friends jump the guy from behind and start attacking him on the ground.

[Keykutter]

You have Martial arts training? Not really helping your case!

KK

[pafindr]

By what you're stating I would not have pulled my weapon in this situation.

The way you described it he didn't appear to be a deadly threat nor did it seem that you were in danger of great bodily harm. You and your friends out numbered him and could have used nonlethal defense. Once you unholster your weapon you are using lethal force. You brandished your weapon so you broke the law.
Could he have had a weapon? Yes, but until you knew he had a weapon or you were in fear for your life you can not use lethal force to stop a threat.

"While in the back of the police vehicle the officer asked me why am I carrying such a large handgun and a spare mag. That it’s a CCW and your handgun isn’t supposed to be huge."

Is there a law in Ohio that says how big a CCW is supposed to be? Sounds more like he was trying to get you to talk enough to really nail you. NEVER talk to the police in this situation. Anything you say WILL be used against you in a court of law. You shut your mouth and talk to a lawyer.

You or a friend should have immediately been on the phone dialing 911.
They way it sounds to me you used poor judgment in this situation.

[Phillip Gain]

In my (non-attorney) opinion...

It's a little late to be seeking opinions from this forum for your defense. This incident happened when, in September? And you have court tomorrow morning? Didn't exactly leave yourself much breathing room, did you?

If the facts are EXACTLY as you are telling them, and you or one of your friends did not instigate the altercation by saying something to the driver of the truck, then I would consider seeking the advice of another attorney. But again...doesn't seem like you have time to do so.

[Keykutter]

On more note. There are attorneys that deal specifically with this type of incident and CW violations. Maybe you could find one quickly and get a postponement. A regular attorney is gonna get you in trouble albeit not as much as you can get yourself into.

KK

[Agent Green]

You were wrong to draw. Frankly, as a permit holder, you should have known better. Take the plea.

[milesihrig]

martial arts training, knowing that 80 percent of street fights end up in a ground fight... do you really want to be rolling on the ground with someone reaching around your body and uncovering your weapon.

[milesihrig]

By what you're stating I would not have pulled my weapon in this situation.

The way you described it he didn't appear to be a deadly threat nor did it seem that you were in danger of great bodily harm. You and your friends out numbered him and could have used nonlethal defense. Once you unholster your weapon you are using lethal force. You brandished your weapon so you broke the law.
Could he have had a weapon? Yes, but until you knew he had a weapon or you were in fear for your life you can not use lethal force to stop a threat.

"While in the back of the police vehicle the officer asked me why am I carrying such a large handgun and a spare mag. That it’s a CCW and your handgun isn’t supposed to be huge."

Is there a law in Ohio that says how big a CCW is supposed to be? Sounds more like he was trying to get you to talk enough to really nail you. NEVER talk to the police in this situation. Anything you say WILL be used against you in a court of law. You shut your mouth and talk to a lawyer.

You or a friend should have immediately been on the phone dialing 911.
They way it sounds to me you used poor judgment in this situation.

so when is it exactly you have ther ight to pull your weapon... do you have to be laying on the ground being beaten...

in my ccw course, i was instructed that pulling your weeapon and using it (not firing) to sccare an attacker away but in order to fire your weapon, you have to feel that your life was in serious jeapordy.

no law in ohio about size off ccw gun.. as i told the officer i was able to safely carry the weapon without anyone knowing that i was armed