Towne East Square Mall - Wichita, Kansas Wichita has two large indoor malls, Towne East and Towne West square malls. I usually spend more time (and money) at the Towne West square mall because it's closer to where I live, but last weekend I went to Towne East because one of my daughters was singing in a Christmas concert (Yes, Kansas still lets public school kids sing CHRISTMAS songs!!). I went in through JC Penney's and, since I hadn't been to Towne East mall in a while, I took a good look at the doors and confirmed there was no signs banning CCW. Saw the concert, did some shopping, and left.
Yesterday I went back to Towne East mall (I was on that side of town due to appt at VA) and went in through Dillards. I'm shopping my way through the mall and make my way to Sears when I see the "no CCW sign" on the entrance doors. WHOA now...I knew I didn't see one on the doors going into Dillards, and just 2 days ago there were no signs on the doors going into JCPenney's, but there are signs on the doors going into Sears?!?
So I quickly leave and head to my car. I drive around the mall looking at all of the entrance doors. About half have the no CCW sign, the other half do not.
I call the Towne East Square Mall office and ask for the security office but the administrative assistant heads me off (won't put me through---asks if there is anything she can do for me). I explain to her that I found the mall's signage inconsistent and I wanted to know what the mall policy was. She said she would have to pass my question to someone else, and then took my name and number. I will call them back today if they don't return my call.
And I'll keep you posted.
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I lived in Wichita for five years before moving back to Texas. I'm glad I moved back...in Texas there are strict rules how the "No CCW" signs must be displayed. If the signs don't match the law, then as a concealed carry holder you're free to ignore them.Originally Posted by Boatswain2PA
I'm interested in hearing what you find out. Although I'm grateful to be back in my home state of Texas, I still miss Nuway and Spangle's from time to time.
I spent several years working in management for one of the companies that provides mall security at Towne East & Towne West. Typically, anchor stores in malls own their own footprint, and are responsible for the signage on their doors, both outside and the inside doors leading in to the mall proper. The mall owner is only responsible for placing any "No CCW" signage on those doors which enter into the common areas of the mall.
Simon malls usually have their "code of conduct" rules posted just inside the mall entrances, all of which I've seen have some sort of general, all-encompassing "No Weapons Allowed" rule somewhere in there. I don't know if that is enough in the state of Kansas to disallow CCW...in some of the states I've worked in it sufficed, with or without specific "No Carry" signs on the doors.
I occasionally travel to Wichita, and am interested in how this plays out.
I never understood this. If you've done your job at concealing then why even bother looking for a sign?
Mike - I saw a poster that had something like a "code of conduct" (ie: no loitering, no skateboarding, etc), but nothing about no weapons allowed. There were no "anti-CCW" signs visible when leaving JCPenneys or Dillards going into the mall space, yet most of the exterior mall-space doors have the anti-CCW signs.
I have never seen an anti-CCW sign at Towne West mall. I'm heading there today, maybe I'll drive all around that mall as well.
Cotillion: It's respect. While I don't agree with them, I am not going to disrespect their rights to run their business the way they want to. If they don't want my CCW in their business, I'm not going to bring it in there. Of course, I probably wont ever go there again......
Kansas law is very specific as to what the sign needs to look like and where it is to be displayed.
Kansas Administrative Regulation
16-11-7
16-11-7. Signs. (a) Each sign posted pursuant to K.S.A. 75-7c10, and amendments thereto, shall contain the graphic
in the document titled “personal and family protection act: required signage for K.A.R. 16-11-7,” dated October 19,
2006, and hereby adopted by reference.
(b) The size of the sign shall be eight inches by eight inches or larger. If the sign is eight inches by eight inches, the
size of the graphic adopted by reference in subsection (a) shall be six inches in diameter. If the sign is larger than
eight inches by eight inches, the size of the graphic shall be proportional to the size of the sign.
(c) Each sign shall meet all of the following requirements:
(1) The background shall be white.
(2) The portion of the graphic depicting the handgun shall be black.
(3) The portion of the graphic depicting the circle and diagonal slash across the handgun shall
be red.
(4) No text shall be placed within the one-inch area surrounding the graphic.
(d) Each sign shall be displayed according to the following requirements:
(1) The sign shall be posted at the eye level of an adult. “At the eye level of an adult” shall mean that the
entire sign is between four feet and six feet from the ground.
(2) The sign shall be posted not more than 12 inches to the right or left of all exterior public and nonpublic
entrances to the building.
(3) The sign shall be visible from the exterior of the building.
(4) The sign shall not be obstructed by sliding doorways, displays, or other postings.
(e) Each sign that becomes illegible shall be replaced immediately. (Authorized by and implementing K.S.A. 2009
Supp. 75-7c10, as amended by L. 2010, Ch. 140, 9; effective Nov. 27, 2006; amended Jan. 14, 2011.)
Finally got hold of someone in the security office at Towne East. He explained that the policy at Towne East is no weapons, period. When I asked him what the goal of putting up the anti-CCW signs was, he said it was to keep all guns out of the mall. Then I asked him who would actually pay attention to the signs, and he responded that he hoped everyone would, but I suggested that perhaps, just perhaps, the badguy wouldn't care about the sign.
I guess I won't be going back to Towne East mall anymore.
In our mall in Janesville Wisconsin, there are signs up in the mall area but not at sears or jc penny ot koles. Just when you enter from from a non store entrance.
Not trying to be snarky, but as a Kansan you should be very aware of all laws concerning concealed carry. As has already been pointed out, Kansas is very, very specific about signage (size, location, placement, etc.). The law also stipulates that ALL outside doors must be properly marked. If they are not, then they are not in compliance. Enter through any unmarked door, then enter into the mall interior and you have broken no law. I also might suggest that in the future you might not raise the issue with any other store that is non-compliant. Why tell them they are wrong? Then all they have to do is "fix it".
Agreed. Remember boys and girls, if you do get spotted carrying and management asks you to leave then you have to leave. Otherwise you are trespassing. Remember also that your being asked to leave might get you banned for a time-period and you should not push the issue or make a scene. There hasn't been a test case as yet and nobody really wants to be the test subject so remember that it is called concealed carry for a reason, just like Bruce Wayne doesn't wear a "Ask me about my batcave" t-shirt- you should be careful while CCing in questionable territory. All it takes is one jerk to make a scene and we all get punished by public opinion. You have a responsibility to be as model citizens while CCing. *Not everyone will agree with this and that is fine, it's just my view point*
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