Concealed Carry Life: When to shoot

[mrcolionnoirq]

Knowing when to draw and fire your gun is not always clear cut, so let's engage in a little bit of monday night quarterbacking and determine if this was shooting was valid.

[JJSwiontek]

Without the audio, we don't know what the perp said or what triggered the officer to go into combat mode.

Purely conjecture...

Perp: "Gim'me the money in the register." Perp turns left, takes a step and looks out the way he came in.

Officer: "Freeze! Police!" The perp turns toward the officer with something (weapon?) in left hand. *Bang*

If I were there as a civilian with a CCW, I would have done it differently. I'm not saying that the officer was wrong. I'm saying that CCW holders are not police. I would have also told the perp, "Freeze or I will shoot!" Then he would have turned and re-assessed the situation. He might have run. Threat over. Or he might have surrendered. Or he might have attacked. In which case, I would have shot also. But it would be the prep's choice to escalate.

[olywarick]

Great posting, mrcolionnoirq. I'm a civilian, but with a lot of experience. I thought the LEO did just fine. He had about three seconds where he saw, evaluated and acted.
Civilian? One must be extremely careful that one knows exactly what is happening. If the person in question is obviously leaving, no further threat to life exists, so a self defense position does not exist, i.e. not legal to shoot. Having said that, if one were to call the robber, and he turned with gun in hand, the self defense issue comes back into play. Clear as mud. Here in WA, LEO's have different limits than civilians and there are many issues un-stated. Did the LEO know this perp? Did he have a history of shooting in robberies? Did the LEO consider this guy a deadly risk to others? All those come to play here.
Keep at this--good stuff for discussion. Many times life is just not clear. Pay your money, take your chance. What would have been the outcome if the LEO had not shot?
Warm regards from Pacific Northwest,
Rick

[Purple]

How LE handles a situation like this versus how a civilian would have very distinct differences. Now add in the differences with state laws and you have a debate that will not resolve to any one particular handing that is better than another. As a CC I am not obliged to act on behalf of LE, but my state does provide a defense for those who used a firearm to affect a citizens arrest when a felony has occurred. I don't intent to affect an arrest, but in fearing for my own safety and others around me I would draw, seek cover and make my intentions know. If the BG turned around to see what or who said that, I would engage to remove the threat - a gun pointed at my direction is a threat to my life and safety.

[asbestostongue]

Without audio there are just too many unknown variables to give a concrete answer. But, I tend to think that when the perp points a gun at anyone then he is threatening life and since I'm within sight and range that means my life is threatened. With no notification given on my part I draw and shoot when he turns back in my direction.

[OngoingFreedom]

If there was a weapon in his hand, shoot. No weapon? Draw, cover, evaluate.

[leadsender]

At this point I would have to agree with what the previous three posters have said. The biggest problem with looking at the video is the POINT OF VIEW. A better decision to shoot/don't shoot could be made if the view was from the LEO point of view. The most that I could see was the back view of the BG and maybe something he had. In my book and the book of law; thinking and maybe I saw something will probably get you sent to jail for a bad shooting.

[Dale64]

This incident took place in Curitaba, Brazil.
Their laws and the way people conduct themselves are VERY different than here in the U.S.
Therefore this is actually a poor example to review, I do not believe even an off duty officer here would have taken that shot so quickly. The smart thing to do would have been to seek cover first and observe, then take action by announcing you are police. If the perp turned on him with a weapon then it would be a justified shoot.

[Warbirds]

This incident took place in Curitaba, Brazil.
Their laws and the way people conduct themselves are VERY different than here in the U.S.
Therefore this is actually a poor example to review, I do not believe even an off duty officer here would have taken that shot so quickly. The smart thing to do would have been to seek cover first and observe, then take action by announcing you are police. If the perp turned on him with a weapon then it would be a justified shoot.

I while heartedly agree you cannot analyze what happens outside the USA and try to shoot it here. I was in Northern Brazil, and I saw a teenager get upset at a bus driver and take a sign off the bus, a uniformed officer nearby pulled his firearm and threated to shoot the kid right in front of a huge crowd of people. I really thought the kid was going to die.

The people were seriously afraid of the police. The traffic cops stood on the curb and blew their whistle and pointed if they wanted you to pull over, and people did. I also didn't get the impression that "excessive force" meant anything down there. You DID NOT mess with the police.

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[Deanimator]

Without audio there are just too many unknown variables to give a concrete answer. But, I tend to think that when the perp points a gun at anyone then he is threatening life and since I'm within sight and range that means my life is threatened. With no notification given on my part I draw and shoot when he turns back in my direction.

When you're putting people in immediate and credible fear of life and limb, you don't deserve any warning. Certainly nobody can expect a "warning" from you.

If you're committing a violent crime with a weapon, be it a gun or a knife, you shouldn't complain if you get shot and with NO warning.