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Pick em out and knock em out

This is a discussion on Pick em out and knock em out within the Concealed Carry Discussion forums, part of the Main Category category; Originally Posted by Bikenut Rarely fatal? A quick 'net search brought up just this one example: From: The Belfast Telegraph ...

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Rarely fatal? A quick 'net search brought up just this one example:

    From:

    The Belfast Telegraph

    '20 die' after single-punch attacks


    Twenty people have died in one-punch attacks - often fuelled by alcohol - in Northern Ireland since 2004, police have said.

    -snip-

    Read more: '20 die' after single-punch attacks - Northern Ireland, Local & National - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

    And that simple search pulled up many references to "one punch"....

    Many people think that because an attacker doesn't have something in his hands they are "unarmed" ... but there really is no such thing as an "unarmed" man because the fist.......... or foot.... can be are potentially very effective deadly weapons.
    20 incidents? Seriously? Compared to how many single punches that have been thrown? If its 20 deaths out of 200,000 single punches thrown, that's pretty good odds. Hell, me personally, I've seen probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 sucker punches thrown in bars around the world. Now, if your "stats" compared to my experience (and I'm just one guy...imagine how many get thrown that I didn't/don't see), that'd be a fatality rate of 4%.

    Look I'm not defending these guys. Yes they are thugs/hoodrats/etc and deserve to be brought to justice. All I'm saying is that, for a murder 1 conviction, the prosecution has to show premeditated intent to kill...even if the premeditation occurred just moments prior to the incident. A reasonable person would most likely not think a punch is going to kill them and that's the battle the prosecutor will have to fight. Any fresh out of law school public defender will be able to beat that charge. Murder 2 or manslaughter, however, does not require near as much burden of proof on the prosecution.

    Jeez people...think with your heads from time to time and listen to what someone is actually saying rather than just what you think they are
    "People should not fear their governments...governments should fear their people!"

  2. #12
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    We had this same game going on in Madison Wisconsin last year. Have not heard to much about it since CCW passed.

  3. #13
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    I am not a lawyer, but wouldn't it be murder one if it occurred during or as a result of another crime being committed ?

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    I stand corrected. According to Illinois penal code found at Illinois General Assembly - Illinois Compiled Statutes, the fact that they robbed him after the assault is what elevated it to 1st degree murder. I've never heard of it being like that. In every state I've lived in, the definition of 1st degree murder has been what I laid out in the previous comments. I guess it is a kudos for Illinois...they sure don't get many on this forum. Hope the prosecutors can pull it off, but they'll probably plea it down to a lesser charge.
    "People should not fear their governments...governments should fear their people!"

  5. #15
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    Isn't it just standard operating procedure to charge them with the absolute maximum they prosecutors think they can get away with, so that they still have a hefty charge against them when they inevitably bargain for lesser charges? I'm no legal expert by any means, but isn't pretty much the first thing the defense does is try to get the charges reduced? By that logic, charging with murder 1, in the hopes that they actually get the murder 2 charge makes sense.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabatam View Post
    20 incidents? Seriously? Compared to how many single punches that have been thrown? If its 20 deaths out of 200,000 single punches thrown, that's pretty good odds. Hell, me personally, I've seen probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 sucker punches thrown in bars around the world. Now, if your "stats" compared to my experience (and I'm just one guy...imagine how many get thrown that I didn't/don't see), that'd be a fatality rate of 4%.

    Look I'm not defending these guys. Yes they are thugs/hoodrats/etc and deserve to be brought to justice. All I'm saying is that, for a murder 1 conviction, the prosecution has to show premeditated intent to kill...even if the premeditation occurred just moments prior to the incident. A reasonable person would most likely not think a punch is going to kill them and that's the battle the prosecutor will have to fight. Any fresh out of law school public defender will be able to beat that charge. Murder 2 or manslaughter, however, does not require near as much burden of proof on the prosecution.

    Jeez people...think with your heads from time to time and listen to what someone is actually saying rather than just what you think they are
    My point was that one punch being fatal isn't as "rare" as folks might think. And I provided an actual cite to actual facts for just one country over just a few years.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    My point was that one punch being fatal isn't as "rare" as folks might think. And I provided an actual cite to actual facts for just one country over just a few years.
    Incredibly weak stats to back up your claim of it not being as rare as people think it is when you find 20 cases spanning an 8 year period in a country that's known for its drunken brawls. You need to show that as a percentage by citing the number of single punch assaults recorded over that time period. Even then, your numbers will be skewed a little due to the number of single punch assaults that weren't reported. If you don't put up all the numbers, it's easy to make an argument in your favor. For example, I can say, accurately I might add, that roughly 250,000 to 500,000 people die a year from the regular seasonal flu virus. That sounds pretty bad. But when I tell you that the total number of people infected with the seasonal flu virus every year is 340,000,000 and that the mortality rate, based on those numbers, is 0.025% to 0.147%, that kind of puts it in perspective. You can't only present one side of an argument without expecting a rebuttal from a different angle. That was my point about your stats
    "People should not fear their governments...governments should fear their people!"

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    Good,or Bad They get what they deserve. I dont want to hear they were good kids. If they were that good, They would'nt be out @ 5am looking for Trouble.

    The Victim had 12 Children that now lost their Father to an Stupid Random GAME. And now the Defendent's family wants us to feel Sympathy because he was a good kid who wanted to get into Law Enforcement.

    Give me a break He should of thought about that prior to Assaulting,and Killing this Man. They must pay the price for acting in such a manner.

    My Sympathy goes out to the Children who lost their DAD. Gods speed be with him, and his Family.
    NRA,NYCCW,PALTCF,FLCCW,ARCCW,DCM,NYSRPA,SCOPE

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabatam View Post
    Incredibly weak stats to back up your claim of it not being as rare as people think it is when you find 20 cases spanning an 8 year period in a country that's known for its drunken brawls. You need to show that as a percentage by citing the number of single punch assaults recorded over that time period. Even then, your numbers will be skewed a little due to the number of single punch assaults that weren't reported. If you don't put up all the numbers, it's easy to make an argument in your favor. For example, I can say, accurately I might add, that roughly 250,000 to 500,000 people die a year from the regular seasonal flu virus. That sounds pretty bad. But when I tell you that the total number of people infected with the seasonal flu virus every year is 340,000,000 and that the mortality rate, based on those numbers, is 0.025% to 0.147%, that kind of puts it in perspective. You can't only present one side of an argument without expecting a rebuttal from a different angle. That was my point about your stats
    I'm quite willing to have a look at any cites and/or links you provide that reference one punch fatalities....

    And a 'net search for one punch fatalities results in a plethora of links to incidents. So my point was quite simple... that one punch fatalities aren't as "rare" as folks might think.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I'm quite willing to have a look at any cites and/or links you provide that reference one punch fatalities....

    And a 'net search for one punch fatalities results in a plethora of links to incidents. So my point was quite simple... that one punch fatalities aren't as "rare" as folks might think.
    You're the one that decided to start this argument, for no good reason so I'm not going to look anything up. My point has been made 3 times now, each time more clearly than the last. If you want to look up those statistics, be my guest. However, I'm done debating with you over the validity of your statistics because there is no point trying to debate something with an opponent who is either unwilling or unable to admit they were possibly wrong. I've already admitted my ignorance regarding Illinois law but I stand by what I've said to you regarding your cursory google search and, until you come up with numbers from a credible source to back up your claims, I have nothing further to say to you about this.
    "People should not fear their governments...governments should fear their people!"

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