Bar Brawl While CCing
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Bar Brawl While CCing

This is a discussion on Bar Brawl While CCing within the Concealed Carry Discussion forums, part of the Main Category category; I manage a bar a couple of nights a week and as an employee I'm allowed to carry under FL ...

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    B2Tall's Avatar
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    Default Bar Brawl While CCing

    I manage a bar a couple of nights a week and as an employee I'm allowed to carry under FL law, whereas patrons are not. The other night there was a brief brawl involving 5 or 6 guys. As usual on the rare occasion this sort of thing happens I jumped into the fray as a peacemaker, pulling patrons off each other (and always keeping an eye out for any weapons in hands). Nobody made any attempt to hit me. After it was over and the participants were leaving for the night (my policy is that anyone who throws a punch is done for the evening regardless of their role in the fight), the girlfriend of one of the "victims" asked me in a somewhat derisive tone why I didn't punch any of the "instigators". "Somebody's gotta be a peacemaker" was my response much to her dissatisfaction. What I really wanted to say was "Listen you idiot...if I just up and start punching this guy and he pulls a weapon and I have to shoot him....even to save myself....I'm going to jail on a manslaughter charge at the very least". Of course I didn't say that because I don't advertise that I'm carrying but it illustrates the mindset I believe is necessary when packing. It got even worse when one of the participants (now in the parking lot) said to one of his opponents "I've got something for YOU!" or words to that effect, and opened his car door and reached under his seat. At that point the PF9 tucked into my back pocket was screaming like an air-raid siren. Fortunately it was a bluff and everyone went their separate ways.

    This occurance also raises an interesting "What if?", as in....what if somebody had pulled, say, a knife during this brawl and advanced on me with it and I was compelled to shoot in order to protect myself and others?? I don't believe I'd be in trouble but I wonder about the liability of those who instigated and/or escalated the situation. I think that'll be a topic for discussion with a few of the bar patrons.....
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    I liked your response as I am an investor in a major bar in SW FL and would hope that any of our security personnel would have the same mindset as you. I do not believe that any of our personnel are armed, but this will make me check to find out. CCW personnel do need to have a different mindset from the average citizen in their homes. So many liabilities are involved.
    And I also know your feeling when the one aggressor states he has "something for you". It would be tempting to fill your hand but glad you nor he, did.

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    The idiot who pulled the "I've got something for you!" is lucky that SOMEONE didn't shoot him. That ranks right up there with the idiot who brandishes an unloaded gun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    I manage a bar a couple of nights a week and as an employee I'm allowed to carry under FL law, whereas patrons are not. The other night there was a brief brawl involving 5 or 6 guys. As usual on the rare occasion this sort of thing happens I jumped into the fray as a peacemaker, pulling patrons off each other (and always keeping an eye out for any weapons in hands). Nobody made any attempt to hit me. After it was over and the participants were leaving for the night (my policy is that anyone who throws a punch is done for the evening regardless of their role in the fight), the girlfriend of one of the "victims" asked me in a somewhat derisive tone why I didn't punch any of the "instigators". "Somebody's gotta be a peacemaker" was my response much to her dissatisfaction. What I really wanted to say was "Listen you idiot...if I just up and start punching this guy and he pulls a weapon and I have to shoot him....even to save myself....I'm going to jail on a manslaughter charge at the very least". Of course I didn't say that because I don't advertise that I'm carrying but it illustrates the mindset I believe is necessary when packing. It got even worse when one of the participants (now in the parking lot) said to one of his opponents "I've got something for YOU!" or words to that effect, and opened his car door and reached under his seat. At that point the PF9 tucked into my back pocket was screaming like an air-raid siren. Fortunately it was a bluff and everyone went their separate ways.

    This occurance also raises an interesting "What if?", as in....what if somebody had pulled, say, a knife during this brawl and advanced on me with it and I was compelled to shoot in order to protect myself and others?? I don't believe I'd be in trouble but I wonder about the liability of those who instigated and/or escalated the situation. I think that'll be a topic for discussion with a few of the bar patrons.....
    First, well done on handling that situation.

    Where you state you’re from - SE Florida – is very liberal area of the State. That means liberal government, including Judges, and State Attorneys. And if you’re in Palm Beach County, woe to you and other gun owners…

    Since Florida's “Stand your Ground” law – which really isn’t a law, but comprised of several Statutes – Palm Beach County has had six Stand Your Ground cases. In all cases, charges were filed by the State. Those charges resulted in four acquittals, one nolle prosequi, and one conviction of a lesser charge of discharging a firearm. See the details of those at the end of this post.

    If you don’t have Gutmacher’s book, I strongly suggest you get it and understand, in your area, you are more likely to be charged than not, regardless of the facts of the event. Having said that, now is the time to select an attorney and have that number programmed in your phone.

    Should you find yourself in the unfortunate reality of a self-defense event, do not give a detailed statement to anyone other then your attorney. In reality, you shouldn’t give any statement other than providing your ID and CWFL. Let me be exceedingly clear on this, do not talk to the Police.

    ================================================== ==================

    April 2011: Michael Monahan, 66, bought a sailboat from Ramie Mohlman, 49, but neglected to transfer the title to his own name. When the boat later racked up violations, Mohlman was notified by authorities that he owed fines. After Monahan didn’t address the problem, Mohlman and his friend, Matthew Vittum, went to Phil Foster Park in Riviera Beach, where the boat was anchored and they boarded the vessel. According to police, Mohlman had a blood alcohol level of .27 — almost three times the legal limit, and Vittum had cocaine in his system. Neither was armed and neither touched Monahan. But he said he felt his life was in danger and he shot both men to death. Vittum was 20 feet away from Monahan when he was shot. All charges against Monahan were dropped.

    July 2008: Tony Hayward and his father were delivering newspapers about 3 a.m. in West Palm Beach when they encountered Jyron Miles, 22. They said Miles aggressively demanded “Is you straight?” a phrase sometimes used by people looking for drugs. The father and son said Miles then reached for what they thought was a gun, and the younger Hayward fired, killing Miles. No gun that might have belonged to Miles was found at the scene. Hayward was acquitted of a first-degree murder charge.

    November 2007: Jason Payne, 22, of Wellington was hosting a party when William Wilkerson Jr., 19, arrived and began flirting with Payne’s girlfriend. Payne told him to leave. Witnesses said Wilkerson threatened to kill Payne, but left, climbing into his truck. Payne, unarmed, pursued him, pounded on the window of the truck twice, breaking it. Wilkerson shot Payne in the chest, killing him. A jury found Wilkerson not guilty of murder on the basis of Stand Your Ground. He later was convicted of a lesser charge of discharging a firearm from a vehicle and sentenced to four years.

    May 2007: Timothy McTigue, 43, of Boynton Beach and Michael Palmer, 23, became involved in a fistfight at Phil Foster Park. The two men fell into the water and as the unarmed Palmer was pulling himself onto a dock to get out, McTigue shot him. Palmer was later found to have a .29 blood alcohol level, more than 3.5 times the legal limit. McTigue was charged with second-degree murder but was acquitted.

    October 2006: Norman Borden, 44, fired 14 shots from his 9mm handgun at three men in a Jeep who he said shouted threats at him and tried to run him over as he walked his four dogs early one morning in the Westgate neighborhood near West Palm Beach. Killed were Christopher Araujo, 19, and Saul Trejo, 21. Juan Mendez, 20, was wounded. Borden was acquitted.

    September 2006: Christopher Cote, 19, of The Acreage, got into an argument at 3 a.m. with a neighbor, Jose Tapanes, 63, as Cote was out walking his dog. Tapanes, a Cuban-American, claimed the younger man had thrown a beer bottle at him and told him to go back to Cuba. Cote claimed Tapanes had pointed a gun at him. Cote, who had been drinking, went to Tapanes’ house and either knocked or banged on his door. Tapanes shot Cote twice with a shotgun, killing him. Tapanes was originally convicted of manslaughter, but won a new trial and was acquitted in 2011.

    Source: Palm Beach Post archives
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    The idiot who pulled the "I've got something for you!" is lucky that SOMEONE didn't shoot him. That ranks right up there with the idiot who brandishes an unloaded gun.

    Somebody told me that another of the brawlers, as they were driving away, brandished something although it wasn't apparent if it was a firearm or not. That's so insanely stupid and it's been adressed before on this site.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2700 View Post
    First, well done on handling that situation.......
    Thanks. I'm pretty aware of the liabilities and obligations that accompany CCing in this area and I act accordingly.
    (Insert random tough-guy quote here)
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2700 View Post

    Should you find yourself in the unfortunate reality of a self-defense event, do not give a detailed statement to anyone other then your attorney. In reality, you shouldn’t give any statement other than providing your ID and CWFL. Let me be exceedingly clear on this, do not talk to the Police.
    this is very good advice and should be part of anyone's knowledge of guns. You have a right to remain silent! USE IT. provide the responding police with your name address and something to the effect of this person attacked me and I was in fear of losing my life, then SHUT UP until you meet with YOUR attorney. The cops will persist in trying to get you to say something, anything to get the conversation going it is imperative that you say NOTHING!!.

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    I think you did a good job there BG. I worked in LE & private security as a body guard for a guy that owned several of the roughest bars in Memphis back in the 80's. The three baddest bars were a biker bar, redneck bar & a inner city bar. (There were weekly shootings & stabbings in all three.) I've found myself in several similar situations as you described.

    Have you got a good team of bouncers to work with?

    I know my team saved my ^ss more than once. I had been distracted by something else happening on the dance floor one time; and I missed a guy coming up behind me with a knife. Three of my guys tackled him less than 6' behind me. (I don't like to think what would have happened if somebody didn't have my back that night.)

    We ultimately had to search & disarm all of the patrons that came into the three worst bars I worked in before we gained control of the situation. (Seriously, we did weapons check; just like they do hat & coat checks in some restaurants & clubs in NYC because we were in danger of being permanently shut down.)

    The one thing I would also recommend for any "armed" individual doing "bar/nightclub" security type work would be to get a real good detention holster. I can tell you from 1st hand experience that if you get into a hth situation with someone (messed up in the head), and they find out you're carrying, you will be fighting for control of your weapon.

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    Well I bounced clubs for about 15 years and I can honestly say you did a great job, but also made a few mistakes.
    1 Six dudes is way to many people for one bar keep. Hire a good bouncer.
    2 Anyone walking and talking bluffs or threats should be excorted or like me and my bouncer buddies used to say get on his heels. Why? first to attempt to calm the group or person down to avoid further escalation and second to be tight up on them so that they cant go to the trunk or under the seat. We had been known to take weapons from people while trying to "Set it off" in the parking lot.
    3 All patrons should at least be "wonded" in or patted down and all "gun mals" (women with their boyfriends guns in their purses) pocketbooks should be searched by a woman. That way u never have to worry about any other weapon other than bar stools and bottles.
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    I outgrew the whole bar thing about 36 years ago. Haven't missed it a bit. I may only imagine the behavior of drunks now. No thanks.

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