Spoke to a Judge... What is he talking about?

[gdcleanfun]

The two most prominent points in Mr. Fish's case were a question of which law applied, and the fact that he used such a large caliber. Since AZ had passed a new law, there has been discussion as to whether the new law applied, or the older one.

You are so correct! Mr. Fish's 10 mm bullets were HUGE!

[rockwerks]

You are so correct! Mr. Fish's 10 mm bullets were HUGE!

actually a 10MM uses the same bullet sizes as our trusty 40 S&W. the normal bullet is 180 grain and the max Ive seen on the market is 200 Grain. Both still substantially less than a 45 acp. the main difference between the 40 and the 10mm is the brass a 10mm case is about 1/8" longer to accept a higher charge. I have 10mm brass cut down now that I use to reload my 40.

[wolfhunter]

Yeah, ONE millimeter bigger than the 9mm so many think is an anemic defense round. Go figure.

(Whatever would they think of Guncrafter Industries' .50GI?)

[wuzfuz]

Fun, I was a deputy sheriff in the #3 county in Arizona, and had a CCW permit for two terms after I left the department. I would hazard a guess that .45 ACP and 9mm Are the two top loads carried for self-defense in Arizona. I myself carried a .45 ACP, as I personally do not feel the 9mm is adequate for self defense, especially after seeing a case where a 9mm bullet ricocheted off a guy's forehead. I wil look up Mr. Fish's case, but I sincerely doubt he was convicted he was convicted for carrying 10mm ammo, which is only one millimeter larger than the ubiquitous nine,and .05 inch smaller than the .45 ACP. Something the anti-gun people should know is that when Arizona was considering legalizing concealed carry, almost every police chief in the state spoke up against it. They claimed that there would be vigilantes cruising the streets, looking for purse snatchers to blow away. These never showed up. Crimes against persons dropped dramatically, and I think it was due to the BG not knowing who might be carrying. There have been a few, very few,in relation to the permits issued, of permits being revoked for cause, and most of them were on technnical grounds. I found it interesting that after the assassination attempt on his life, someone asked President Raegan what he thught of gun control law now. He replied he wished it had happened in Arizona (his in-laws lived at the Biltmore in Phoenix), because 25 people in the audience would have pulled their legal handguns and shot the assassin repeatedly. When I was a deputy, there was no provision in Arizona for anyone but police or military to carry concealed, and I even had one of our corporals tell me I could not carry off-duty. He was later reprimanded for criticizing a deputy for carrying a shotgun on a man with a gun call.

[fas111]

I took the class yesterday and of course the topic came up. Our instructer suggested we use the same type of ammo the local PD uses. He felt that would eliminate the agrument as to the use of improper ammo. Sounded very logical to me. Naturally you may not be using the same cal. as the local law enforcement but you should use the same brand of ammo.

[gdcleanfun]

I wil look up Mr. Fish's case, but I sincerely doubt he was convicted he was convicted for carrying 10mm ammo, which is only one millimeter larger than the ubiquitous nine,and .05 inch smaller than the .45 ACP.

Wuz, I would not have thought so either, until I read this. Read all 6 pages of the story. It was quite the eye-opener for me. Sure gives rise to questions as to how unfair our judicial system can be, Blind Justice is only as blind as the courts allow her to be. Not only did they focus on the 10 mm, but on the fact that they were hollow points and designed to kill! Shocking and scary that normal, everyday citizens are allowed the type of ammunition designed for self defense!

[rrc1962]

A prosecuting attorney will go after anything whether it makes sense or not. They will spin most unbelievable story into a something that a jury will buy hook line and sinker. A good defense attorney should have pointed out that ANY bullet is designed to kill. The prosecutor has to spin the story so the jury feels for the BG. The defense has to spin the same story so the jury sides with you. Two different versions of the same exact story. The prosecution will be looking for anti gun jurors while the defense will be looking for pro gun jurors.

Self defense rounds should be large enough and powerful enough to stop a BG with the fewest shots fired. What's better for the public? Firing one or two .45 JHP's or emptying a 15 round magazine full of 9mm FMJ to accomplish the same task? Which scenario is most likely to inflict collateral damage? That's the sort of thing the public doesn't understand.

[Boomboy007]

The Judge you spoke with is an idiot! My brother-in-law is a chief DA in Philly. (Where JHP's are illegal, I found this out on a visit form Florida.) He didn't have a problem with the JHP's, he just told me not shoot anyone with them. He thinks it's great that there are concealed carry laws. In some cases he feel it makes his job at prosicuting them easier because they can't testify. He told me it doesn't matter how many rounds the gun can hold, just how many rounds were fired and where did they go. The next time I visited Philly I changed my ammo to EFMJ, there not JHP's

I recently moved from PA to CT, and there is no law concerning JHP in PA. In fact, I would hazard that JHP's are carried nearly universally by both permit holders and law enforcement alike. I was a law enforcement officer in a metro PD, and there was no limit on ammunition types (barring Teflon coated).

The state of PA has a Preemption Clause and denies all counties, municipalities and townships from regulating the ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms or ammunition. The wording is thus:

18 PA.C.S. § 6120 states, "No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth."

Unfortunately, a lazy DA can cause a lot of trouble within a municipality. It is common for the Da's office to submit memos to local law enforcement officers regarding new, out-dated, or confusing laws. Can you imagine a Chief District Attorney like Farglov's brother in law issuing a memo containing the information that he erroneously gave Farglov? After a few successful lawsuits, up go the property taxes to pay for judgements. Before commenting on any law, look it up. Even lowly patrol officers like myself had an easily referenced book of PA criminal codes in the car.

Therefore, Farglov, next time you are in Philly, carry the rounds that YOU think will protect your person and your family best.

[netentity]

So, I had an interesting conversation with a local district magistrate. He informed me that if I were to use my .40 cal Taurus for self defense (which is what it is for), with a full magazine of federal HydraShocks, I could be charged with manslaughter?

Does it matter how many rounds are in your self defense carry gun? Does it matter what type of ammunition it is? I am confused by the whole deal. Is he just telling me something so he can hear himself talk or what? I have never found any type of written rules to govern such a statement.

Anyone help me out? I am just trying to find the truth. Has anyone ever even heard of soemthing like this?

Also what are the rules for a properly permitted concealed carry weapon? are they to be unloaded when carried or is it ok to have a concealed carry cocked and locked?

In PA no. Unless the judge is originally from NJ (which is possible) I don't understand his reasoning. Hollowpoint ammunition is illegal in NJ for civilian use.

[netentity]

In PA, Teflon coated bullets are a no no. for criminal use....but I dont think Id be the test case for concealed carry

18 Pa. C.S. §6121. Certain Bullets Prohibited.

PA is one of the States that passed a State ban on armor piercing handgun ammunition before the Fed did. Such rounds are prohibited by the Fed too so whether there's a state law prohibiting it is irrelevant now. NV has a similar restriction under NRS 202.273 which became law back in 1983. The KTW round caused a lot of needless hype.