"Mental Illness" prohibitions on CCW permits

[BradAnderson]

Michigan and some other state laws prohibit issuing CCW permits to persons "diagnosed with mental illness."

The CCW permit-application also asks "have you ever been diagnosed with a mental illness," with a check-box for "yes" or "no." The application states that by signing it, you aagree and consent for them to check all records, public, private, privileged or otherwise; and if they find anything incorrect, then you're guilty of perjury and other felonies subject to fine and imprisonment.

Note that the applicant also has no way of finding out if there's some "record" which could be construed in this manner; they are basically held responsible for knowing.

The legislation-reform process on "shall-issue" CCW laws, likewise defends CCW's on the grounds that it will "respect long-standing prohibitions regarding persons with mental illnesses."

As to the definition of "mental illness," the law defines as "any nervous or mental condition interfering with everyday life." This is incredibly vague.

Likewise, this applies even to diagnoses made BEFORE the law was passed-- a clear ex post facto law, since the person had no way of knowing this risk of such a positive diagnosis, prior to subjecting themself to it; it's also a violation of Due Process, since they had no fair warning.

Finally, this is likewise a state's denial of equal protection under the law, in violation of the 14th Amendment.

Note that NONE of these stipulations pertain to whether a particular person is actually proven to be a threat to themselves or others: on the contrary, it's a 100% arbitrary.

Basically, the state is imposing a medieval stigma, and catering to public prejudice and ignorance, by sacrificing an unpopular minority against whom society holds an irrational fear, in order to get a law passed.

Despite that the ACLU has produced breakthroughs against public oppression of diagnosed "mental illness" to prevent persecution of persons who are not actually proven to be a threat to themselves or others-- or who are likewise duly convicted of any crime-- this area of persecution still exists in the right of persons to defend themselves.

Likewise, it excludes those persons who simply fail to get medical attention for such conditions-- and likewise discourages such persons from doing so, by risking such a diagnosis and thereby effectively disarming themselves from being able to defend themselves by carrying concealed-- which they usually need all the more due to being underprivileged and disadvantaged of finances, support, etc. due to their condition.

I know that laws are based on popularity more than legality, however I'd like to know if there is any way to challenge this law for persons who fall under this public stigma.

[vn6869]

Ah, yes, wait until Obama care. When the anti-gun government bureaucrats will be reviewing and maintaining your health classification and records. Good Luck then.

Actually these vague undefined terms leave a lot of us veterans exposed. If I recall after Obama took over there was talk of classifying us as potenital terrorists.

[AZSATT]

Actually, many combat vets returning from theater operations are being "screened" to help determine and/or identify PTSD issues etc etc.

The answers to some of these "routine post-deployment screenings" can and likely will be used by Homeland Security to ID those who will not be legally obtaining firearms. Many GI's are aware of this, and whether they purpose to purchase firearms in their future or not, it fuels the fire to NOT disclose how you really feel - just tell them what they need to hear and clear out.

This is a very interesting topic, and made all the more convoluted when the mainstream media exploits each and every incident when someone who shouldn't have access to firearms shoots up some place and kills some people - typically in a gun-free area. The brush used in painting "shooters" keeps getting more and more broad. Of course, their spin is that NO ONE should have access to firearms because guns are "evil."

Trying to navigate the topic of mental health while addressing 2A rights... very, very difficult road to travel.

[NOBAMA]

I know in NYS that you are not considered mentally ill unless you are hospitalized by some form of gov't agency, cops etc... Even if you admit yourself they do not consider that being mentally ill for a permit to carry concealed.

[ricbak]

Azsatt, I think has brought up a couple good points. I feel that the vets (God Bless Our Vets) will be unfairly categorized. Mich Firearms Laws state:

~ (d) A statement by the applicant regarding whether he or she has a history of mental illness that would disqualify him or
her under subsection (7)(j) to (l) from receiving a license to carry a concealed pistol, and authorizing the concealed weapon licensing board to access the mental health records of the applicant relating to his or her mental health history. ~

It will not take much to classify a Returning Vet wrongly... Certainly this issue is going to be around awhile and I have a feeling will be getting much more intense.

[BradAnderson]

Originally Posted by NOBAMA

I know in NYS that you are not considered mentally ill unless you are hospitalized by some form of gov't agency, cops etc... Even if you admit yourself they do not consider that being mentally ill for a permit to carry concealed.

However from what I understand, NYS also never ISSUES permits to anyone less than a rich and famous celebrity.

[BradAnderson]

Originally Posted by ricbak

Azsatt, I think has brought up a couple good points. I feel that the vets (God Bless Our Vets) will be unfairly categorized. Mich Firearms Laws state:

It will not take much to classify a Returning Vet wrongly... Certainly this issue is going to be around awhile and I have a feeling will be getting much more intense.

No offense, but vets are no different from anyone else who has a nervous condition that does not in any way cause them to present an increased threat to themselves or others.

It's pretty ironic that a person can be denied a gun-permit because they were a victim of a violent crime and suffers from the fear of it happening again-- because they can't carry a gun to PREVENT it from happening again!

And once again, we see that the state is a self-fulfilling evil.

[AZSATT]

I don't know, but I'd guess if the level of exposure or frequency of exposure to traumatic, life-altering circumstances matters, and if ONE such occurance can result in said nervous disorder, then I'd have to believe repeated exposure to several such instances would be... I don't know.... worse?

But I'm not looking to hijack the thread and make it all about our nation's walking wounded.

It is ironic 'the machine' that is our present system of Gov't is geared to devour and destroy us all if left unchecked.

[NOBAMA]

Originally Posted by BradAnderson

However from what I understand, NYS also never ISSUES permits to anyone less than a rich and famous celebrity.

You are thinking about NY City. Remember there is more to NYS than NY City. In the rest of the state as long as you are in good standing with the law and no felonies you will have no problems getting a permit. It will take 6-9 months though.

[ricbak]

BradA.. None Taken, There are some good thoughts that run through this site... There is a guy down the street that is on his third Tour to the ME. Who knows what has happened/involved with there. I do agree that the "Check Box" is pretty lame. To verify your own med records is next to impossible, if not extremely time consuming. How many doc, dentists, work physicals, ect... ect... have you done? Our system does have it's faults, but It is still SO much better than in England.... So the Question Then becomes How can We fix it. We are in fair shape here in PRMI, That just means we have to work more to improve what we have.

By the way, Welcome to the site...