How far away is does a person have to be to be a threat?

[gunsite]

I don't know the use of deadly force laws in every state, but i don't want to end up in court proving why i had to shoot an unarmed person. 6shooterCarry your LEO friends gave you some good advice, text shooting scenarios are fun and simple which makes great discussions, BUT COURT... they will turn you into Lee Harvey Oswald.

No one talks about the court end of shootings except those of us with experiences with LE shootings... whether you were the shooter, at the scene, or associated with the shooting.

If a person has a knife/bat at 20 ft verbally threatening you (in Public)... and you pull your weapon, and that person continues being aggressive, he's a kook, because he's now has a stick/knife at a gun fight.

But for the sake of argument, if you have no means of escape in this condition, i would start to move (not back stepping) while i'm covering him talking him down (keeping as much distance as i can) (not becoming a still target).

MY LAST OPTION... SHOOT, because i was in fear of my life, those are the words you live by in court, and you'll have to prove it too.

lawyers ask things like, could you have retreated to your car and lock the door and call 911, could you retreated to a public business for help, could you... did you... try to runaway to a safe place, could you have out-run your aggressor, could you have put something in-between you and him, a door, a fence, a wall, or climbed something to escape... did you have ANY alternatives other than shooting this man and killing him.

Yes... court is full of fun stuff.

[PX4storm]

Here's where I think having a "warrior" mentality comes into play. A person who is serious about personal self-defense, IMHO, should be doing more than just strapping on a firearm. Think martial arts training of some sort. I am older now but have quite a few years of such training under my belt, so personally, if someone is coming on me fast and I can't tell if they're armed or not, I'd probably a) run or b) trust my motor skills to provide some sort of defense (palm strike to the face, e.g.) which would give me additional precious seconds to make a further determination of the threat.

Just me, but I think all CCW holders ought to have such training, in addition to tactical/defensive handgun training. In the scenarios, described above, I believe that the "average" CCW holder could be in a world of hurt. I could be, also, but I've maximized my chances of staying alive as best I can.

My .02 cents.

The true warrior trains for battle and prays for peace.

[hollie1]

Tn class we were told 21ft! This was at our Police Dept!

[gunsite]

I was talking to a person last night that said that before they would draw and fire a threat woould have to be within 5 feet. I passed on that at 21 feet that it takes little over a second to close the distance etc. Stil this person was dead set on that distance.
Here is what I am wanting to know at what distance do you see a person a threat that would cause you to draw and then to fire?

Twenty one foot rule is a gap estimated by LE/open carry confrontation against a target armed with a knife, think again if your weapon is conceal, its winter, and you're wearing a coat/gloves.

As you go about your day carrying or not, run scenarios in your head during your activities and assess your reactions.

[ClearSightTactical]

lawyers ask things like, could you have retreated to your car and lock the door and call 911, could you retreated to a public business for help, could you... did you... try to runaway to a safe place, could you have out-run your aggressor, could you have put something in-between you and him, a door, a fence, a wall, or climbed something to escape... did you have ANY alternatives other than shooting this man and killing him.

Yes... court is full of fun stuff.

Good advice, but this is where having a good attorney would pay off:

I couldn't speculate about if I could have done this, or if I could have done that, because its speculation. Sitting nervously in a courtroom while being grilled by some prosecutor is still less stressful than being charged by some junkie with a knife.

my answer to the above questions would be "NO" if there were a way to escape the attack, I would have. I was trained to use my firearm as a last resort, and that's what this was, my last resort before being killed.


PS: Stand your ground laws are good and well on the books, BUT the prosecution in criminal/civil is still looking to paint you as a vigilante.

[kelcarry]

Hey Y'all: Seems like the 21 ft rule seems to have the most support. Leaving that aside, in SC the real key is "presumption of reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm". "Presumption" and "reasonable" have very different meanings probably to all of us and therein lies the problem if you are CC. Tough calls all the way around and a great deal of responsibilty being assumed by all of us who are CC. I have started practicing point shooting and even hip shooting which could give me a slight edge in response. Bringing a firearm to full extension and sighting it leaves a lot of time expended and also puts you in a vulnerable position with your firearm out in front of you. In addition, my little pocket gun has almost non-existent sights as do many of the little mousies out there. As a suggestion, learn more about point shooting with your CCW--it probably makes more sense than being able to target shoot accurately at 20-100 ft or more.

[gunsite]

I was talking to a person last night that said that before they would draw and fire a threat woould have to be within 5 feet. I passed on that at 21 feet that it takes little over a second to close the distance etc. Stil this person was dead set on that distance.
Here is what I am wanting to know at what distance do you see a person a threat that would cause you to draw and then to fire?

I train with tactics against... passive threat, and defined threat. location/time is a variable, but for the sake of discussion, a person approaching from 100-200 feet is a threat, passive, but a threat, because you have know way of knowing intent. A defined threat is a person approaching at 100-200 feet with weapon/aggression/verbal/intent to do harm.

A passive threat at 200 feet, you eye-ball, observe, if at anytime/distance your target becomes life threatening... according to your state's guide lines you draw. You can't draw on a person, or to the ready position because someone is approaching you, i would think most states require some reason to believe fear of life, or imminent danger of harm, depending on your state laws.

In short... at the time/distance you feel danger or fear of life, you draw/fire. Its hard to draw a line in the sand what that distance is.

[kelcarry]

Hewy gunsite: I apologize if my comments are not correctly directed to your reply but when you talk 100 ft or 200 ft you are talking about distances that firstly can be mitigated by moving, running, hiding etc and not by standing there with drawn gun and deciding whether it is "passive" or "real". You are then going to decide whether the threat is, indeed, life threatening?--at that distance? Something just sounds wrong here--I cannot see your firearm out of your holster ready to be fired. You'd better hope that a jury would see this differently. Sorry if I am misinterpreting but I've got a problem with over 100 ft and thinking I am in that kind of danger when I can be yelling, moving, running, hiding, etc etc. I can appreciate having your "awareness button" on but that is about it.

[gunsite]

Hewy gunsite: I apologize if my comments are not correctly directed to your reply but when you talk 100 ft or 200 ft you are talking about distances that firstly can be mitigated by moving, running, hiding etc and not by standing there with drawn gun and deciding whether it is "passive" or "real". You are then going to decide whether the threat is, indeed, life threatening?--at that distance? Something just sounds wrong here--I cannot see your firearm out of your holster ready to be fired. You'd better hope that a jury would see this differently. Sorry if I am misinterpreting but I've got a problem with over 100 ft and thinking I am in that kind of danger when I can be yelling, moving, running, hiding, etc etc. I can appreciate having your "awareness button" on but that is about it.

I'm not saying to take a shot 100-200 feet... but be aware, assess, and eyeball not in a paranoid or panic mode, but simply awareness mode. Many times over the years and still today when i'm in a restaurant, shopping, Malls, or anywhere in public with or without family, I"M ALWAYS ASSESSING, I assess in a low key uneventful way, its in my blood, its who i am, its what i've been, its like a 6th sense. I watch people (close/far), their moves, body language, hands, I watch their watching, and so on.

Example...

Always play defense... i can't name every scenario possible, but take the concept and incorporated to other situation. If i'm at the mall and walking/approaching my car, i'm eyeballing all the way, if i was standing out side my car hanging out waiting for my wife and a target starts walking towards me and i'm now in his path. At 150 feet from me i may have doubt, so i would i would move out of his pathway (passively), at some point if his intentions are no good, he'll have to commit his aggression to my altered position, and at this point i make my next move. My direction would commit him where i'm now his target.

The key to my statement is DOUBT, everyone has their own perception of a potential threat that are not defined, and there're many variables that would determined that. I would suggest if at all possible, DO NOT SHOOT ANYONE... stay out of court... do not put yourself in a position where you'll need a lawyer... If you give me a choice to shoot or run-away (escape)... i'd runaway every-time. (call 911)

If you go to court, even if your right/justified, you can be wrong, if your round misses or penetrates someone, or ricochets and hits someone, YOU OWN IT, YOUR LIBEL.

At some point you have to realize you can't be ready each and every-time, everyday, every minute of the day, and always be right. You try to maximize your protection and minimize your dangers and that's how should walk through life.

Let me end by saying, if your in fear of your life and left no choice... YOU SHOOT, and worry about everything else later.

The more training you get, the more you learn, the more you know, the more your able to learn.

I know sometimes thoughts and ideas are difficult to put on paper, so if you/anyone needs to ask/clear something up in regards to my post... feel free.


Good Luck

[kelcarry]

Hey gunsite: Absolutely agree with your last reply. I am 68 and NEVER have had anything happen that remotely resembles a need for a CCW. I lived in NYC and NJ, not exactly peace and love monasteries, but as an engineer I always felt that my brains and thought process were such that I was always looking ahead to all kinds of "what ifs" and it is that mental process and awareness that served me well. I do the same in my car--always looking in the rear mirror, the side mirror, trying to stay between traffic pockets, looking at front wheels as I pass for possible turning movements etc etc. Be safe gunsite and look forward to exchanging replies on this forum.