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Trigger pull

This is a discussion on Trigger pull within the Deadly Force and The Law forums, part of the Main Category category; Here in the People's Republic Of Massachusetts (or PRM) state law mandates that all new handguns sold by dealers must ...

  1. #11
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    Here in the People's Republic Of Massachusetts (or PRM) state law mandates that all new handguns sold by dealers must have a ten pound trigger pull. It really is quite irritating. It makes some guns very difficult to handle well. The M&P line is a good examle. That said, I do get trigger work done on my guns but I don't go lower than the standard factory pull that they ship to other states.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_S View Post
    Here in the People's Republic Of Massachusetts (or PRM) state law mandates that all new handguns sold by dealers must have a ten pound trigger pull. It really is quite irritating. It makes some guns very difficult to handle well. The M&P line is a good examle. That said, I do get trigger work done on my guns but I don't go lower than the standard factory pull that they ship to other states.
    It's not all new handguns. Just ones that require fewer than 2 actions to fire. (Examples are pistols with no safety, or with a trigger-mounted safety ala Glock or M&P.) I just had Mike LaRocca perform the trigger job on my M&P. Nice crisp 6.5 lbs now.
    S&W M&P 45; Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum; Charter Arms .38 Undercover
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/members/phillip-gain-albums-phil-s-photos-picture3828-reciprocity-map-29jun11.JPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain View Post
    I concur. A carry pistol should have a trigger pull no less than 4 lbs, for the sake of avoiding a negligent discharge.

    If you shoot in a clear-cut case of self-defense, you will likely not be charged with anything nor have to appear in court.

    If your scenario isn't clear cut, and if you are prosecuted - then YES, the prosecutor will probably use all sorts of things to "stick it to you." Trigger weight, ammunition type, magazine capacity, shot placement, appearance of your firearm, your own appearance - ANY of this can be used by a zealous prosecutor.

    What helps you on the street, can be harmful in court. It's a reality.
    Very good point that people get all confused with. It doesn't matter what you use and none of it is "illegal" or "can be used against you" stuff but when you get in court everything you used will have some kind of bearing on the case by an overzealous prosecutor. In one case he will argue that your intent was bad because you use hollow points and the next case he will use cheap ball ammo against that person. He will find some way of making you look bad no matter what caliber or ammo you used. Working with the power company I went through that kind of stuff where we would meet and exceed every code in the book and the lawyers would still argue about it. In one case we were supposed to know that people with a sailboat would erect the mast on the boat while still on the trailer and exceed the code requirements of 30' (or whatever it was). Yes lawyers will use anything they can whether it makes any sense or not to the average person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910:254626
    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain View Post
    I concur. A carry pistol should have a trigger pull no less than 4 lbs, for the sake of avoiding a negligent discharge.

    If you shoot in a clear-cut case of self-defense, you will likely not be charged with anything nor have to appear in court.

    If your scenario isn't clear cut, and if you are prosecuted - then YES, the prosecutor will probably use all sorts of things to "stick it to you." Trigger weight, ammunition type, magazine capacity, shot placement, appearance of your firearm, your own appearance - ANY of this can be used by a zealous prosecutor.

    What helps you on the street, can be harmful in court. It's a reality.
    Very good point that people get all confused with. It doesn't matter what you use and none of it is "illegal" or "can be used against you" stuff but when you get in court everything you used will have some kind of bearing on the case by an overzealous prosecutor. In one case he will argue that your intent was bad because you use hollow points and the next case he will use cheap ball ammo against that person. He will find some way of making you look bad no matter what caliber or ammo you used. Working with the power company I went through that kind of stuff where we would meet and exceed every code in the book and the lawyers would still argue about it. In one case we were supposed to know that people with a sailboat would erect the mast on the boat while still on the trailer and exceed the code requirements of 30' (or whatever it was). Yes lawyers will use anything they can whether it makes any sense or not to the average person.
    So my question is this...

    If it doesn't matter if you have a 1, 2, 5, 10 lb trigger, the overzealous prosecuter will use it against you. It doesn't matter if its hollow point, round/ball, +p, +p+, reloaded, or frangible ammo, the oversealous prosecuter will use it against you. So if it doesn't matter what you use, why not use the best equipment for your skill set? Why put yourself at a disadvantage?

    Maybe a 2lb trigger is not your most accurate pull, but a 4.5 gives you a better grouping. Maybe a 6 pound trigger pulls is what feels natural to you. Say factory standard for a certain handgun is 6lbs, and you are competent but not at your best with that trigger pull, why should we put ourselves at a disadvantage if this is a tool to save lives? If a 2.5lb trigger pulls lets you put more rounds on the intented threat faster, that is what you should use, becuase it is your life that will be at stake. Making a trigger pull harder is a liability to the shooter's own life when shtf and you have to pull the gun...any trigger pull is a liability for someone who doesn't have good trigger discipline. Negligent discharges are a sign of poor training, not of enhanced equipment.

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    Negligent discharges are a sign of poor training, not of enhanced equipment.
    I can't say that I agree with that statement. Negligent discharges are usually a combination of things that all come together at one time and many times due to the repetitive actions that someone has trained for until they no longer think about it. For example the LEO who inserted his Glock back into the holster only to have the waist tie string from his coat hook on the trigger causing it be pulled and fire the gun. As someone has said about ND's and the two groups of people who handle guns regularly. There are those who have had a ND and those who just haven't had theirs yet. No amount of training will completely prevent ND's and no amount of safety devices will completely prevent ND's. However both, hopefully, will reduce the number.

    I do agree than you need to use whatever best fits your situation because when you get to court it isn't going to matter. My point is that for most people the lighter trigger pull on a Glock or similar is more likely to result in a ND. For some people it would be fine but not for the average person.

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    I sort of agree with the above statement. An nd is a chance occurs nice and can happen to anyone. I remember I wa at the range one time trying my buddy's para 1911 witha worked trigger. I was aiming at the target and simply touched the trigger to begin to take up the slack and put one on the paper.... There was no slack and the gun fired. A try hair trigger. I put the gun down and never fired it again. It didn't feel safe.

    I went back to shooting my hk and noticed that the match trigger had some slack.

    All in all I believe that the perfect trigger has some take up but not to much, a little over travel for good measure but not to short to not engage, light enough to control with a glove on and tuned within the margin of comfort for the individual

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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910:254876
    Negligent discharges are a sign of poor training, not of enhanced equipment.
    I can't say that I agree with that statement. Negligent discharges are usually a combination of things that all come together at one time and many times due to the repetitive actions that someone has trained for until they no longer think about it. For example the LEO who inserted his Glock back into the holster only to have the waist tie string from his coat hook on the trigger causing it be pulled and fire the gun. As someone has said about ND's and the two groups of people who handle guns regularly. There are those who have had a ND and those who just haven't had theirs yet. No amount of training will completely prevent ND's and no amount of safety devices will completely prevent ND's. However both, hopefully, will reduce the number.

    I do agree than you need to use whatever best fits your situation because when you get to court it isn't going to matter. My point is that for most people the lighter trigger pull on a Glock or similar is more likely to result in a ND. For some people it would be fine but not for the average person.
    You don't agree with me???!?! HOW DARE YOU!!! just kidding... :)

    Do you know if the police officer had an enhanced trigger? If he had a stock trigger, then it wouldn't matter what his equipment was, the tie string would have fired the gun. So it comes down to training. If he was training properly, and clearing his holster of all potential ND before putting his FA back in, he wouldn't of had the ND. Complacency is another sign of poor training. For me, I train to avoid complacency, because that is one of the worst mindsets to have when dealing with firearms.

    I can see where you are coming from though, I have seen it in other places than firearms as well. For example, when I first started riding my motorcycle I was told, there are two kinds of riders. Those that have crashed, and those that just haven't crashed yet. I thought to myself, sounds like a bunch of crap. Why have such a negative outlook? I didn't practice riding my motorcycle, and I dont ride it today thinking, I am going to crash someday....I ride thinking I will not crash, because I have practiced and I am aware enough to avoid bad situations. When I train with my firearm, I train thinking I will not have a ND, I will not do anything wrong, because I have the right mindset. Accidents happen, they are just far more rare. I do believe in second chances and people making mistakes, but I dont use those as excuses for ND's.

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    I agree complacency and/or poor training cause the vast majority Negligent Discharges. It was true in the safety reports I read while in service. It was even more true the safety reports I had to write while down range. Thankfully none were US troops. NATO and UN troops have some questionable practices. IMHO clearing a weapon should never include pulling the trigger. Doesn't matter how many safeties or how strong or weak the trigger pull is when stupid is involved. Thankfully all, but two were into clearing barrels and no one got hit. The joys of life on a FOB. Regardless of the type or make of weapon none of the ND were anything other than stupid human tricks.

    I think every one has a different ideal trigger pull weight. I think it even varies from firearm to firearm. For me I like a stronger trigger pull on thicker grips, but that's just me. I deployed to Iraq with an M9 with an above milspec trigger pull. I qualify expert with it so they waived the trigger rather than having me re-qualify with it repaired or replaced. Every one should find what is comfortable and accurate for themselves. Know the local laws of all areas you travel. You keep your i's dotted and your t's crossed. It will lower the chances of prosecutor pressing charges. However, if you have prosecutor that anti-gun expect them to use any/every law they can. No matter how old or obscure. Expect them and the press to do everything they can to discredit you. Just look at the press in Ohio when concealed carry laws to changed to allow CC in bars/restaurants so long as CCDW doesnít drink.... Cincinnati press kept going off about bartenders, waiters, and waitresses dying of second hand gun smoke. They get rather crazy with their predictions. The prosecution will paint you that way if they can. Research lawyers in advance, so you arenít scrambling afterword.

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    After practicing with a double action only trigger pull, the glock standard trigger pull feels minimal, comparitively speaking. That's just what I have become used to with the firearms I have.

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    From what I understand about the LEO and the cord causing the trigger pull it was a standard trigger Glock. When he holstered it he notice it being a little hard to get in the holster so he gave it a good shove. :(

    As for complacency my instructor was telling us about a friend of his that developed the habit of always cycling the action three times to be sure the chamber was clear when unloading his gun. He also developed the habit of cycling it with his hand on top of the slide to make it easier. :( One time he performed his usual ritual then pulled the trigger to break it down and BANG!!!!!! His top hand evidently blocked the bullet from being ejected even with the three cycles. Luckily the only thing injured was his pride and underwear. He changed methods of clearing his gun after that.

    The rule about keeping your finger off the trigger is fine but I always think about if a person can train themselves enough to always keep their finger off the trigger until ready to shoot then shouldn't they be able to train themselves to not pull the trigger? It is just a matter of training and practice either way.

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