FBI uses Chainsaw in Raid on Wrong Apartment - WHAT IF?

[CathyInBlue]

As noted, I have a pretty elaborate alarm system and dogs, one thing it does not do is turn on internal lights giving the outside folks my position, nor will it ever do so, outside lights light the BG up for easy targets.

If all of the lights in the entire house, including upstairs lights and lights in rooms that are not even occupied light up, how would that give away your position?

On another issue, if you know the door is solid wood, even hard wood, then I can see some bright bulb getting the idea of using a gas chain saw as a breaching tool. My front door is solid core, but its skin is steel. Also, I have half of all of the screws, door side and jamb side, replaced with 5" long screws, so traditional shotgun breaching wouldn't work as well, also dead bolt is 1.5-2' higher than door knob.

I want to try my hand at building my own exterior doors to achieve a 2" thickness. In lieu of a core of 3/4" plywood, I could do 3/8" plywood sandwiching a 1/8" sheet of steel. That's pretty well guaranteed to screw up a chainsaw.

[rev. dave]

It may be instructive to remember the '70's with the 'No Knock' laws. Then too there were lots of 'wrong address' invasions by feds and locals. Once they started meeting buckshot and slugs flying out of the hallways, the 'No Knock' procedure was dropped pretty quickly.

These days any punk-ass gang can buy black SWAT uniforms and insignia online, as well as body armor. And any damned fool can pound your door and shout "POLICE". A citizen can't risk waiting to find out if it's bad guys in black BDUs or or just bad feds. A shot 5.5 feet off the ground while the saw is still cutting the door will pretty surely take care of the chainsaw guy - he's directly behind the saw and blade. And if they don't 'knock and announce' you're entitled to shoot first.

[Hamilton Felix]

Sorry but this is ILLOGICAL, wrong, and irresponsible. Grabbing your rifle and shooting through your door before you can even see who you are killing is plain stupid! For all you know, you could be committing murder on the fire department who is breaking in everyone's door in the burning apartment complex because they are trying to clear the building and they know everyone is asleep.

Whoa, Cowboy! I'm trying to give a scenario where it's loud, you're in immediate danger, and the attackers are unidentified. Maybe this chainsaw attack wasn't the very best example of that - However: I own 5 chainsaws, I live in Logger country, and I know saws. If my Husqvarna 385XP is running flat out, indoors, there is NO possibility of verbal communication. And I don't care if it has the 28 or the 32 inch bar on it, you can cut through something like a residential door faster than you can move the saw.

BUT - I know saws and if I can see the bar of the saw, I know where the operator is standing. I know he'll be inside in seconds, and I already know what's beyond my door (ie: the backstop area for rounds that miss). If I open up with my little AR or my M1A, a good percentage of those rounds WILL hit the saw operator. Assuming this is a Texas Chainsaw Massacre copycat, we're all dead if I do not open fire immediately.

The question is: You are attacked with extreme noise and violence by unknown assailants. You beat the odds and survive. It turns out they were Law Enforcement. What happens in court afterward?

BTW, in my not-so-humble opinion, masked, heavily armed attackers in black armor are Terrorists and should be met with the maximum available firepower. Peace Officers, on the other hand, do not wear masks, do have name tags and badges, do wear uniforms, and identify themselves when they knock on your door.

[Nightmare45]

If all of the lights in the entire house, including upstairs lights and lights in rooms that are not even occupied light up, how would that give away your position?

On another issue, if you know the door is solid wood, even hard wood, then I can see some bright bulb getting the idea of using a gas chain saw as a breaching tool. My front door is solid core, but its skin is steel. Also, I have half of all of the screws, door side and jamb side, replaced with 5" long screws, so traditional shotgun breaching wouldn't work as well, also dead bolt is 1.5-2' higher than door knob.

I want to try my hand at building my own exterior doors to achieve a 2" thickness. In lieu of a core of 3/4" plywood, I could do 3/8" plywood sandwiching a 1/8" sheet of steel. That's pretty well guaranteed to screw up a chainsaw.

While not going into my total protection of home, I can tell you breeching my door will get you "KILLED" None of my internal lights come on I know my home they don't. If you call I will show up with my attorney.

[Hamilton Felix]

I'm with you in spirit, my friend.

BTW, the carbide tooth saws used by fire departments (I tried to get some when I was running our small VFD, but when a chain costs more than a small saw, they balk) are designed to handle composition roofing, nails, etc. They'd have no problem with the super thin sheetmetal in a lot of residential entry doors.

I'd like to have entry doors with real steel in them. If you're experimenting, don't forget your arithmetic. Alloys vary, but use 0.283 lbs. per cubic inch and you won't be too far off. So a 1/8" plate inside a 36 x 82 inch entry door will add 104.4 lbs. A 1/4" sheet adds almost 209 lbs. But if it was something like T-1 steel, it might be worth the extra framing, hinges and effort.

Just remember, while you're busy designing the super door with metal armor, locking lugs all around like a safe door, etc., that it's a felony to harden your home so the cops have trouble breaking in. In most states, it has to be a drug raid and they actually have to find something (oops! a joint fell out of that last cop's pocket). In a few states, it only has to be a "drug raid," even if they hit the wrong address, find nothing, etc. I have a friend here in WA state who was in prison with a guy doing more time for hardening his home than for the drugs.

Frankly, I believe a GOOD lawyer could make a pretty good case for the defender in a situation where there was clearly no identification of the attackers before they hit the place. But a lot of lawyers can be scared off by cops and government agencies. I've seen it happen. Unless you're worth at least ten million, I think if you defend yourself effectively against cops you're screwed.

[rev. dave]

So, it's a felony to protect yourself by strengthening your home against intruders? Or a felony to harden it against police / fed invasion specifically? This law would basically make it a felony to have a 'safe-room' too, as it would also stop police from getting to you.

It would seem the burden of proof is on the state - proving you built up your doors and such to keep out law enforcement and not for simple protection from crime. Since their response time to a home invasion is probably on the order of 20-30 minutes - assuming you have an alarm system that notifies them immediately - and they aren't coming in to save you anyway when they do get there, I would think it would be difficult for any prosecutor to say your home was fortified against police unless there was criminal activity at the location - and if they're busting into the wrong house, even shooting at them isn't criminal - you will likely be killed for it, but it's not a criminal act. Self-defense is never criminal.

And checkout jury rights too in case you're ever called. You have NO obligation to convict anyone regardless of 'proof' or 'evidence'. Fully Informed Jury Association This kind of law, as well as those that make resisting a cop on duty not matter what he does to you, is purely 'police state' in nature. Refuse to convict anyone for hardening their home or property. Just say NO. Judges will often instruct juries that they have an obligation to convict if the case is proven - but that is a lie. They do NOT want us to know that we have the right to refuse to convict a person if we feel the law they're charged with breaking isn't just or fair or is just plain stupid.

[billwot]

I'm with you in spirit, my friend.

Just remember, while you're busy designing the super door with metal armor, locking lugs all around like a safe door, etc., that it's a felony to harden your home so the cops have trouble breaking in. .

Could you supply some references/documentation to support that statement?

[Hamilton Felix]

Could you supply some references/documentation to support that statement?


Billwot, I did it a while back, and I didn't save or bookmark the web pages. Anyone with a little imagination on how to frame search requests, and some time with Google can do it. You'll find plenty to get the idea, without having to use Lexlaw or Westlaw or any of the subscription services.

When I started looking and started getting hits in enough states to get the general idea, I found that in MOST states, it not only has to be a "drug raid," but they have to find some contraband. A few states did a worse job of writing the law, so it only has to be a "drug raid," however misguided.

My friend did prison time in the 1990's and he was in with a guy doing more time for hardening his house than for the drugs they found.

This crap came in with the "War on Drugs," same as all those outrageous forfeiture laws. So the bottom line is, try not to get raided (yeah, I know). And definitely do not have anything illegal on your property. One wishes for a secret underground escape passage or something, like in the movies, because when your government comes for you, you're usually dead.

Don't let it discourage you from making your house hard to break into. Just make SURE there's nothing even remotely illegal (visiting relative's forgotten leftover prescription in the guest bedroom, some 222's from Canada, etc.) in your home. And do check the specific law in your state.

And, though I never really got an answer to the original question, I think if you resist even the most insanely misguided and improperly executed raid, you will most likey be charged for any of the attacking idiots you shot.

[maybejim]

"And, though I never really got an answer to the original question, I think if you resist even the most insanely misguided and improperly executed raid, you will most likey be charged for any of the attacking idiots you shot."

I rather doubt that and I strongly doubt that you would ever be convicted.

[festus]

A gentleman in Mississippi was convicted of killing a police officer in the performance of his duties when the officers performed a no knock raid at the wrong apartment and he just so happened to shoot the first intruder to cross the thresh hold.

He was holding his child at the time and was terrified because he had been broken into previously...
The State of Mississippi apparently did not see it that way....