How Cooperative with a LEO is wise?

[Canis-Lupus]

I ask this as general advise, knowing each state and situation has it own laws and every situation is different, so I am NOT looking for more than general advice from someone who has lived thru this, is a CCW trainer/expert or been the arresting officer.
OK, U have had to use your weapon in some form from drawing it, to pointing it at someone who is hell-bent of messing you up for no reason you provoked, to discharging it at that attacker as a very last resort. Or that person has already gained entry to your home or car and you now fear for your life big time. You are sober and hopefully you are the armed citizen who made the (recorded) 911 call for help, which may arrive in 2 or 20 minutes. The cops show up and your brain kicks into DEFCON -1. Shut up, say nothing and plead the 5th. So you state you would like a lawyer present and decline to make any statements (even if a few vital ones could cear you if others agree that is what happened) when they get to the part about: "Do you have anything to say?" If your answer is still a firm "No!" you WILL get you wish after they MIRANDA you, arrest you and take you cuffed to the local cop-shop, maybe leaving your nice car (non-driving spouse or kid or dog left to watch you get hauled away) on the side of a road somewhere. As Landor points out in an excellent blog he made (What every CCW should know and think about.) that bears a read if you have a gun. Per his advice it is good proactive thinking to already have the contact number of the best weapons defense lawyer in town B 4 you even think about walking around packing, in your billfold, or in your head. Someone who you have at least met with once and given him/her your take on being and staying lawful, your personal data, access to arrange bail for you, how to access those funds, calls to your loved ones to take care of your home/pet or job, and ALL the things a PD may/or may not do for you by day 2 into police custody. Also a PD may be a very busy person who gives you tops a 15 minute window of your side of the story, knows only as much about you as is on file and may not know as much as a specialized weapons defense lawyer does when it comes to federal, state, county or city laws he or she may be kinda rusty on about guns, or considers police reports and witness reports 'the facts' B 4 they ever get to your statement. "He said, she said" type of grilling that is almost guaranteed to flummox you. :oooh:
In your estimation, and I would love to get advice from someone who gives me something a lot better than a 1-liner no-help post, don't even bother if that's your level of answering a question you may need the answer to one day in terms better than "You'll figure it out buddy!" (save it!) This type of question IMHO rates a few comments from someone who knows laws not bar-room gags. Is there ever a time or a good reason to provide any details to the 1st senior law enforcement officer on the scene, while your gun is still smoking, the BG is nursing a bullet hole, BUT everything is still very fresh in your mind. The BG if still alive does not have the chance to get some M8's who 'saw the whole thing go down' :hilarious: and will swear you were the BG and their M8 the victim. In those first few moments the witnesses are still there to provide statements still fresh in their minds, but won't be for long, not off on vacation or scattered to the winds to avoid/miss your court date when it rolls around. It's not 3 months later in a court-room, that you and those on your side try to recreate but have forgotten what the BG, or you was even wearing or what day it happened on (oops!), etc., to back up a truly lawful action you chose to take in the absence of any help, looking at impending injury or death that helps you in any way, or damns you for making a statement you can not retract once it's logged into record, and if so, at what point of the many questions the cops are sure to ask you @ the scene would you decline to say another word the day that incident went down? I do consider this a legitimate question that may help many others if they find themselves in this situation. I do not ask for precise legal counsel, but a qualified take by someone with sound advice would be a great help, not in maybe 2 years after I get out of some jail for being my own worst witness.
My regards to any USA Carry patron who wants to provide me (and everyone who views this thread) some words of good advice that may one day make the difference between being released pending a court case on my own recognizance, or sweating it out in a jail cell with less than great folks as company for much longer than you wanted. :icon_bitterbal:
I look forward to some helpful feed-back,

Canis-Lupus :y:

[festus]

Shooting Aftermath

This article covers the topic you have started. It has some good advice.

[kwo51]

Quick one liner look at our history logs and see we did not fall of the turnip truck today.

[festus]

Originally Posted by kwo51

Quick one liner look at our history logs and see we did not fall of the turnip truck today.

This is similar to a thread from a couple of months ago. C/L brought it up again and I posted the same link as last time again. It is good information and maybe something a newbie might need.

[Canis-Lupus]

KWO 51,
I would have valued and understood your post if it gave me your take in your words I could have understand. A 1-liner about turnips, carts & seaching historical logs are words which added little to the question I asked, and your short reply was (IMHO) a wasted post by U. Am I the only one who read it like that? Sorry if that's how U reply to complex questions. Maybe just don't bother 2 reply to them if U can not do it in a 1-liner format?
Festus says he posted something to do with a similar situation a while back, but I sure can not find it, if U can, please slap it up there or maybe he wil.
Reason I asked is personal: an Army M8 of many years now a disabled Vet friend of mine pulled his gun on a gang of CA Hispanic citizens stoning his home with rocks & cans, baiting his kids/wife and poisoned his dog to death. When San Jose P & S showed up they booked the gang-bangers for malicious damage & tresspasing, then let their folks take them home!
My buddy talked his way into a lot more trouble trying to explain why he threatened the life of those poor young goons and dug himself a deep hole he didn't need to. He'll come off much worse, these (blaming him for the Iraq war) gang-bangers :crazy0: will get their juvenile records cleared at 18, he will carry those much more serious weapon charges around with him a LOT longer, he now has lost his only gun to police lock-up, and the the families of the young hoodlems want to sue him for U name it to make matters even worse for a sick middle aged broken man who can barely pay his bills.
I was hoping for something better than 'turnip-carts' and records searches. Hence my request for no 1-liner tells me nothing posts.
Let it go. The damage is already done by his own statements to the cops.
Thanks anyway,

Canis-Lupus

[Canis-Lupus]

I did read the entire common gun/law sense article you posted into this thread. Thanks!
The part that still brings me back to the original question is how much do you tell a LEO when the situation is still volatile & very fresh. The words in that article say: "They will want your name, date of birth, etc…give this to them. They will ask, “What happened?” If they do answer with something like, “He tried to kill me. I was afraid for my life and the life of my wife. I’d like to speak to my attorney now, please” Say nothing else after that!!!! They may try to tell you you don’t need an attorney. You do. They may say, “We just need the details.” This is true, but they can get them from your attorney. There is no need to be rude, however, do be insistent. Under no circumstances should you ever give a statement without your attorney present." Which does bring me back to the original question that should I tell any LEO more than: 'I feared for my life used a gun in a legal manner but now I want an attorney." You have obeyed the letter of the law, but at what ultimate cost to you months later when it goes to trial and folks U hoped would step up to defend you don't or can't, or those who do forget the critical & vital facts that had they been well documented at the time by the by-standers & the cops, surfacing months later would bind that witnesses to statements they made B 4 the fog of forgetfulness confused the truths to maybe wreck your chances of coming out of this even a free person. Then back into court to get your gun back, maybe!
Please reread my post that started this thread with the pros & cons of that mind-set which sooner or later will get you a PD (maybe one whose major us in narcotics not weapons crimes) but maybe too late for things to go from bad to worse the longer time that elapses between the cuffs going onto you or me, verses some carefully worded non-self incriminating statements made so the LEO's who recorded the statements at the time of the incident can get the whole true story to be used in your defense maybe months later, that probably won't be available if no statement was taken and aging Mrs. Jones (your friend and trusted neighbor) is trying to remember any of that day's events, even if subpoenaed into being in court or providing any worthwhile testimony that jives with yours or any of the other witnesses or cops statements in the immediate area telling the same facts about an incident 10 minutes old, BUT 2-3 months later, when their recollections of that day are blurred and probably contradictory or gone from memory in some court house.
I consider this as an example of something that I may risk telling a cop at the scene that goes beyond MIRANDA but may release me into my own recognizance that very day the incident went down, versus waiting ages for a PD to hear it from my lips inside a cell much later if I don't make bail:
"That USPS mail carrier saw the whole incident happen, please take a statement from him or her right now!" Most busy mail carriers will not wait around to complete a busy route on time and B gozno by the time you are in the back of the squad-car wishing they had given their take on your problem. Mail carriers, FedEx and UPS drivers are reliable great to have witnesses on your side. School crossing guards are worth their weight in gold as are school or public transit drivers. They make some very reliable witnesses 1-notch up from say a total stranger waking by who wants not one bit of saving your ass even if they can see you are in trouble! Now do you see why as you should eyeball everyone around for witnesses of good character as the cops are giving you the 3rd-degree. It would be very useful to have a semi-federal employee, or state employed worker to back your story up helping to tell your side of the story as facts. That adds a solid statement that may have not even been taken into your MIRANDA work-up that aids not condemns you. Or the area it happened in has a CC camera and U want that footage as evidence the cops may not even consider or even know exists in areas U frequent more than them most times.
It's no big now, I already figured the risk involved in telling the truth to cops without embellishments or lies, and the value of witnesses who have no preferential bonds to you by friendship, kin or marriage.
It's all pretty much of a moot point now for my Vet buddy in San Jose who I mentioned in this thread, got so down about the shitty hood he lives in, the sudden major life charges he is facing for the worse, and the constant juvenile dangerous daily provocations a gang of angry local thugs have brought against my M8, his family and his life on a daily basis against him that at 8pm local time today he downed a liter of Jack, then drove his car drunk into a wall @ 40mph and is now in hospital with even more charges awaiting his recovery, medical bills the VA won't pay for acts of misconduct and more misery then a highly decorated Vet of Panama, Grenada, GW-1, and 3 tours into Iraq before the Army told him to retire or face a (no retirement) medical discharge to go along with his Silver Star, 3 Bronze stars and 4 purple hearts to name but a few of his medals he earned in 20 years of honorable service to this nation, that some sorry-ass San-J low lives think he's GWB incarnate and treat him like an outlet for their nonmilitary 'expertise' in the subject! In a way I am glad the San Jose cops took his gun away or he may be looking at murder-1 right now, or so his weeping wife told me on the phone tonight. I told her to get out of that shit-hole but with a husband in hospital indef and facing more legal trouble now, if he makes it, that was advice I doubt she'll take.
And some patrons wonder why I have some issues with some legal gun owners who think a CCW permit is just a means to keep their gun from causing public distress. And why some 1-line retorts rub me into less than happy 'buddy' comments. Out of his thread until it rates some useful feedback. Sorry to have even brought it up.

Canis-Lupus

[festus]

When an event like this goes to court, there are 3 sides t every story.
1. The plaintiffs side
2. Th defendants side
3. The Police report.

IMHO I would only offer the following information:

Name,
Address,
CCW license
The phrase; "I wanted the threat to stop."
Followed by; "I want an attorney."

That is all they need from you. Any thing else can and will be used against you in a court of law.:vampire:

[kwo51]

Damn turnip cart has a flat tire. I also am a disabled vet that had to learn ,You have the right to remain quiet if you can.Life for me is to short to not see humor in most things.

[Palmach]

I believe the less said the better. With that in mind, the most important think to make clear to the LEO is that you are the victim. This is why that call to 911 whether at home or on the road with a phone is vital. Letting the authorities know that you are being threatened, that the attackers are armed (whether you know for sure or not), and that you are in fear of your life is so important. If one is placed in a situation of having to defend their actions it is easy enough to secure a copy of the 911 tape to verify your situation, and is an important component in gun defense cases. However, not all agencies keep these for long periods. These tapes can sometimes be destroyed after 30 days, so it is important to secure a copy promptly.

In Florida it is never a good idea to display, or point a handgun at anyone unless you absolutely believe that you are in fear of your life, or are preventing a forcible felony. When you display or point in any other case here you open yourself up to a charge of aggravated assault. This charge in Florida, if convicted carries a 3 year mandatory sentence, and judges have apologized to citizens that they had to send to jail simply because of the way in which this law is written. The use of force should always be equal to the threat. You can also be assured that even if you display a firearm in most situations, never pointing it at the attackers, they will almost always tell the LEO that you pointed it at them. Low life's are always low life's.

Back to the issue of what to say.

A simple statement like, "Officer, this individual broke into my home and I believed him to be armed, I was in fear for my life and the lives of my family and was forced to shoot."

After this, I would not say another word without an attorney. If you are pressed, I would say something like, "Officer, I am very nervous right now, and would like the time to calm down before I make any further statements."

If this does not satisfy him/her, my last resort would be to remind them that in most cases LEO's are given 24 hours to calm down and get their thoughts right before they see an investigator when they have been involved in a shooting.

It is great advice to have an attorney's information with you if you intend to carry. More important is to have the information of an attorney who has experience with State gun laws, and preferably is a gun owner and 2nd Amendment supporter him or herself. Keep in mind that this could get costly, and most homeowners insurance will not cover anything like this. I do believe that the NRA does have some type of insurance that they offer with a limit of $50.000, but this only kicks in after you have spent the money, and won the case.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Palmach

[HK4U]

The following was on the USCCA news letter today. Perhaps it will be of some help.


PART ONE:

"Don't Talk to the Police" by Professor James...

PART TWO:

"Don't Talk to the Police" by Officer George...