Use of deadly force/common sense

[speedracer815]

What I'm saying is that if all you say is "I want my lawyer". you WILL be arrested, no if's and's or but's about it. The police on the scene will label you as uncooperative, they don't know why you shot this person, and so you will be taken into custody and most likely booked. You will talk to your lawyer in an interview room in the police station when he gets there.

There are plenty of cases where a simple statement of fact have kept the good guy out of jail. No arrest, no charges filed. I think this is the best possible outcome after the deadly encounter is over. The experts in the field that I have talked to, including LEO's and lawyers say you should give a SHORT, factual statement and then shut up.

If you're dead set on "I want my lawyer". be prepared for a trip to jail.

[PennJersey.info]

Originally Posted by speedracer815

What I'm saying is that if all you say is "I want my lawyer". you WILL be arrested, no if's and's or but's about it. The police on the scene will label you as uncooperative, they don't know why you shot this person, and so you will be taken into custody and most likely booked. You will talk to your lawyer in an interview room in the police station when he gets there.

There are plenty of cases where a simple statement of fact have kept the good guy out of jail. No arrest, no charges filed. I think this is the best possible outcome after the deadly encounter is over. The experts in the field that I have talked to, including LEO's and lawyers say you should give a SHORT, factual statement and then shut up.

If you're dead set on "I want my lawyer". be prepared for a trip to jail.

I don't agree 100% - There is a law school lecture floating around on why an innocent person should never talk to the police.

Henry

[S&WM&P40]

Originally Posted by PennJersey.info

I don't agree 100% - There is a law school lecture floating around on why an innocent person should never talk to the police.

Henry

Thank you i was hoping someone would bring that set of video's up for this topic. They are great video's and show why you do not talk to police.

[Boomboy007]

Originally Posted by speedracer815

What I'm saying is that if all you say is "I want my lawyer". you WILL be arrested, no if's and's or but's about it. The police on the scene will label you as uncooperative, they don't know why you shot this person, and so you will be taken into custody and most likely booked.

If you're dead set on "I want my lawyer". be prepared for a trip to jail.

What you don't seem to be getting, Speed, is that IF you shoot someone, you are going to jail. Now, the officers may not Mirandize you at that time. They will say that you are just coming to the station to make an official statement. However, anything that say will be used against you. They can decide to Mirandize (arrest you) at any time. The police officers are not the ones that decide if charges will be pressed. That is the decision of the District Attorney. There are some decent people there, but most of the DA's with whom I have worked are more concerned about prosecuting high profile cases than with true justice. Also, keep in mind that the police can and will lie to you to get information. It is legal, and there is no legal relief for any information you give (short of proof of torture, of course).

Originally Posted by speedracer815

What I'm saying is that if all you say is "I want my lawyer". you WILL be arrested, no if's and's or but's about it.

If you shoot someone, you are going to jail, no if's, and, or buts about it. It doesn't matter what you say or don't say, you will not be making that movie, or date, or wherever you were headed. What you say, or more importantly what you don't say, will be the deciding factor on whether you spend several hours at the jailhouse, or spend several years in the big house.

Originally Posted by speedracer815

The police on the scene will label you as uncooperative, they don't know why you shot this person, and so you will be taken into custody and most likely booked. You will talk to your lawyer in an interview room in the police station when he gets there.

What the police on the scene label you doesn't matter if it never goes to court. Keep your mouth shut until you can get your legal council on-scene, and chances are you will not give them anything with which to prosecute you. Remember, once that trigger is pulled, you are in an entirely new ball game. Also, no matter how smart you are, after being involved in a firefight, you can not depend on your faculties. Why do you think that police officers are not allowed to comment to anyone when they shoot? Do you think that they need to talk to the DA first? NO. The very first thing that they do is talk with the police union provided lawyer. If it is good enough for those law enforcement officers who have all kinds of legal relief, why wouldn't you take the same care when you have no relief against the law, save for that thin piece of plastic on which your CCw is printed?

Originally Posted by speedracer815

There are plenty of cases where a simple statement of fact have kept the good guy out of jail.

Well, you show me one case where somone has killed another human being in self-defense and NOT been taken to jail, at least for questioning. I do not believe that you can. More importantly, I CAN show you many, many, many cases showing where "simple statements of facts" have PUT a "good guy" in jail. Remember, when dealing with lawyers, there is no such thing as simple, and there is certainly no such thing as "fact". Truth be told, often the one thing missing in our modern justice system is justice.

Originally Posted by speedracer815

No arrest, no charges filed. I think this is the best possible outcome after the deadly encounter is over. The experts in the field that I have talked to, including LEO's and lawyers say you should give a SHORT, factual statement and then shut up.

You simply have it wrong here, Speed. Again, I understand the impulse to tell your side of what happened. The thing to remember is that once you have shot someone, all of the rules that apply to normal, everyday life are off. You are now, whether you choose to accept it or not, a murder suspect. I don't know what experts you have been talking to, but they are not giving you good advice. If you choose not to believe me or the others on this forum who are well versed in law and law enforcement as it relates to self defense law, then do yourself a HUGE favor: Find a good defense lawyer, give him or her their fee for a one hour consultation (now they are YOUR lawyer and must give you sound advice, as far as they know it), and ask all of these questions of them. It will be money extremely well spent in the case of a self defense shooting. If you will spend $800 on a handgun to defend your life, spend $200-$300 to protect your personal liberty.

The short list provided by JST44Mag is excellent; however, I am sure that he would agree that not saying a word without your lawyer present is far preferable to saying too much. Remember, the adrenal gland is still working, and adrenaline can kill you with your own lips. Memorize JST44Mags list, or simply clam up. Always keep at the very front of your cerebellum that it doesn't matter what those cops think; you are now in a battle against the DA. Do Not give them any advantage against you. Please don't take my word for it. Hire a knowledgeable lawyer and protect yourself.

[Boomboy007]

This is the best 48 minutes that a CCW holder can spend (even better than range drills! )

YouTube - Dont Talk to Police

[Cavalry Doc]

Originally Posted by festus

Let's see what we know about the use of deadly force in general...
Not false bravado or better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...


2. Deadly force is best used when confronted with a clear threat. Not when you think the BG might have a weapon, but you KNOW he does. You only ever want the situation to STOP.

If I think the BG has a weapon, he does until proven otherwise. A weapon is not always necessary to alow for the use of deadly force. Check your local laws carefully.

3. The use of deadly force (Killing another human) will haunt your dreams forever. There is no shaking the what if factor. You only ever wanted the situation to stop.

Not necessarily true. Some people can sleep just fine after killing someone. Now, that being said, the legal fees would likely be a royal pain in the backside.

4. If the criminal is departing after you catch him/her breaking into your car/house/boat/shed they are not a threat PERIOD
Shooting some poor fool in the back is not a good thing; never has been, never will be!

Some states allow for pursuit and the use of deadly force. Personally, I'd let insurance handle the problem whenever possible. There are very few things someone could have, or have done, that would have me chasing them.

5. Deadly force can quickly be turned to premeditated homicide if you have ever had so much as a cross word with the deceased prior to the self defense action.

Someone might argue that in court. It wouldn't enter into my decision making process. I'm not likely to cut a guy any breaks because he had been hostile in the past.

6. I bet you dollars to donuts that you will not want to stay in the same house that you shot and killed some crack head who pulled a knife/gun on you during a home invasion. (It is just human nature to not want to remain at the scene of something so grisly)

You're really hung up on this remorse thing. Not all people would react that way. The only reason I would leave, is if I expected his buddies to come around for some more fighting. Maneuver is an effective self defense strategy. Set the alarm, and let the Cops take them out while I'm soaking in the hot tub in the hotel.

7. When giving your statement to the police, all you will ever say is"I want my lawyer", nothing more. Anything you say can and will be used against you. It is really hard to turn "I want my lawyer" into "he had it coming" or "I was justified in killing him". The letters don't even come close to matching. Keep it simple with "I want my lawyer." This will help protect you in the long run. DO NOT EXPAND ON THE FACTS. Let your lawyer decide what will help you and what will hurt you.

At last, a point that we agree on. I'd add that "I'm the good guy, He's the bad guy, The gun is currently (insert location and status) and you will have my full cooperation once my lawyer arrives and I have had a chance to seek counsel."



The bottom line is that you should only shoot someone that you have to shoot. All of us should try our level best not to hurt anyone, unless there is no other reasonable choice. But if you have to do it, do it well.

[festus]

I'm not really hung up on the remorse thing...but it does help to have an understanding of how the human psyche works. I have seen death and It did not keep me from functioning, It did however bring about what is known as a SEE or significant emotional event. The military was really good about preparing us for what we might encounter, and subsequently what the after effects may be. I have a buddy that has nightmares to this day over things he saw in trashcanistan. He will never be OK and he knows it. But he's learning to deal with it.

My father's friend, shot and killed an intruder during a home invasion. He took those images of what he did to the grave with him. He was never quite right afterwards even though it was a righteous shoot. He would only talk about it after a being good and drunk and he did not cope very well

I, on the other hand have a very strong faith based background and I was less affected by the things I saw. None the less, I was still effected.

My point is that seeing a human life end, even if it is a human POS is not always a healthy thing and if it does not bother you...

you may have some deep seated issues.

[Cavalry Doc]

Everyone deals with a bad situation differently. What your dad's friend needed was someone to let him know that the entire situation began when this fellow decided to come into his home. That it is perfectly reasonable to use deadly force against a home intruder. When confronted with a stranger in your home, it's not time to make a pot of coffee and discuss his financial situation and other motivations for being there. He's there when you are home, meaning that he is not really all that concerned with your wishes, or your safety.

I spent 20 years on Active Duty, I cared for more people that had been shot, stabbed and blown up than I can count. I also got to speak with soldiers after their encounters where they had to use deadly force.

I'd have told your dad's friend that I'd have done the same thing, and would have considered it my responsibility to protect my family.

Seeing a human life end is much better than watching the bad guy stand over your newly perforated body as things go black.

Honestly, If I live the rest of my life and never see another person hurt or killed, I'll be very happy. But life is full of unpleasant duties.


The point remains, I would only shoot someone I had to shoot. If there was an alternative, I'd take it.
It's unhealthy to fantasize about hurting a person, regardless of the situation. It's not something to look forward to. But you should mentally prepare yourself to take actions that you deem unpleasant, if that action is reasonable, legal, and in the best interest of those you love. If you are not prepared to use a weapon in self defense, you should make sure that weapon is either removed from the home, or secured in such a way that it can not fall into the hands of a bad guy. I've had the opportunity to meet some very bad people, I know that very bad people exist. There are some that do not share your sensitivities, and will kill without a second thought or any remorse.

Luckily, the laws where I live, in Texas, support the use of deadly force in a reasonable way. The law favors the property owner, not the bad guy. The take home message there, is that you should probably not ply your trade here, if you are a bad guy. It's likely to get you hurt or killed.



I would hope that no one would want to shoot someone, but if they have to, I support their right to do so.

[festus]

Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc

Everyone deals with a bad situation differently. What your dad's friend needed was someone to let him know that the entire situation began when this fellow decided to come into his home. That it is perfectly reasonable to use deadly force against a home intruder. When confronted with a stranger in your home, it's not time to make a pot of coffee and discuss his financial situation and other motivations for being there. He's there when you are home, meaning that he is not really all that concerned with your wishes, or your safety.

I spent 20 years on Active Duty, I cared for more people that had been shot, stabbed and blown up than I can count. I also got to speak with soldiers after their encounters where they had to use deadly force.

I'd have told your dad's friend that I'd have done the same thing, and would have considered it my responsibility to protect my family.

Seeing a human life end is much better than watching the bad guy stand over your newly perforated body as things go black.

Honestly, If I live the rest of my life and never see another person hurt or killed, I'll be very happy. But life is full of unpleasant duties.


The point remains, I would only shoot someone I had to shoot. If there was an alternative, I'd take it.
It's unhealthy to fantasize about hurting a person, regardless of the situation. It's not something to look forward to. But you should mentally prepare yourself to take actions that you deem unpleasant, if that action is reasonable, legal, and in the best interest of those you love. If you are not prepared to use a weapon in self defense, you should make sure that weapon is either removed from the home, or secured in such a way that it can not fall into the hands of a bad guy. I've had the opportunity to meet some very bad people, I know that very bad people exist. There are some that do not share your sensitivities, and will kill without a second thought or any remorse.

Luckily, the laws where I live, in Texas, support the use of deadly force in a reasonable way. The law favors the property owner, not the bad guy. The take home message there, is that you should probably not ply your trade here, if you are a bad guy. It's likely to get you hurt or killed.



I would hope that no one would want to shoot someone, but if they have to, I support their right to do so.

My point was that after a shooting, A lot of perspectives change some for the better some for the worse. I like you spent 20+ in the military and yes I agree there are some very bad hombres out there. That being said I am prepared to defend life liberty and property but will not look forward to it in the least. It is a conditioned response of military training (muscle memory) You do what you must to survive. You deal with the fall out of those actions as they come. You try not to effect the lives of kids by what they have seen or heard. other than that you press on with pride and schedule an appointment with your pastor to help you get over a significant emotional event.

[Cavalry Doc]

Originally Posted by festus

My point was that after a shooting, A lot of perspectives change some for the better some for the worse. I like you spent 20+ in the military and yes I agree there are some very bad hombres out there. That being said I am prepared to defend life liberty and property but will not look forward to it in the least. It is a conditioned response of military training (muscle memory) You do what you must to survive. You deal with the fall out of those actions as they come. You try not to effect the lives of kids by what they have seen or heard. other than that you press on with pride and schedule an appointment with your pastor to help you get over a significant emotional event.

There are plenty of well adjusted happy people that have justifiably killed someone else.

Maybe the solution is some prior planning, and CID's (critical incident debriefing), and maybe some counselling for those that need it.


The best solution is one that allows you to plan ahead in such a way that you lessen your likelyhood of ever being involved in a violent encounter. Yep, that's the best.