Chicago's Next Move

[bigrebnc1861]

I agree that firearms training is important and that every gun owner should have training, but NOT as a condition of ownership! If the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is actually a RIGHT, the government, at any level, can only restrict that right IF the citizens allow it. If we allow a prohibition on ownership based on a level of training, we leave a loophole in the middle of our Right in the determination of the level of training required. Is a Hunter Safety course sufficient? Does it have to be a State certified course? How many hours? What curriculum? By requiring training as a prerequisite to ownership, you'd turn a Right into a regulated privilege. Claiming the founding fathers would've agreed is a cheap shot for the uneducated. The Signers of our founding documents had a strong leaning toward behavior based on personal responsibility not government legislation.

Gun ownership and responsible, trained behavior should be our society's norm. The peer group of our neighborhoods should encourage us to be familiar and proficient. Discussions in our break and lunch rooms should involve practice techniques, course availability, and range days, just like those fisherman who sit around discussing lures, baits, knots/rigs, favorite locations, and techniques.

How was what I said a cheap shot at the uneducated? Do you think most framers in the days of the founders were educated? I think they used common sense. Some may have had an education but for the most part most didn't. It was the respondsibility of the father to train his son in the usage of any firearm they may have owned.

[Bohemian]

And yet, I can't get a license (yet) because I went to a therapist for dealing with OCD and ADHD.

Going to a pshrink on Wednesday morning to get the certificate of sanity to disarm the Indiana State PD of that argument against giving me one of Indiana's vaunted lifetime licenses.

AND you have to do this largely in part to the NRA's support & endorsement of the so-called NICS Improvement Act of 2007, AKA Veterans Disarmament Act... yet another stinking Brady Bill...

01/08 Q&A On The Veterans Disarmament Act

9/07 Veterans Disarmament Act

-- Veterans Disarmament Act on its way to the President
"To me, this is the best Christmas present I could ever receive" --(Rabidly Anti-Second Amendment) Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY), CBS News, December 20, 2007
Gun Owners of America and its supporters took a knife in the back yesterday, as (Gun-Banning) Senator Chuck(y) Schumer (D-NY) out-smarted his congressional opposition into agreeing on a so-called "compromise" on HR 2640 -- a bill which now goes to the President's desk.
The bill -- known as the Veterans Disarmament Act to its opponents -- is being praised by the National Rifle Association and the Brady Campaign...
12/07 Gun Owners Get Stabbed In The Back (by the NRA AGAIN...)

Thomas Jefferson once wrote "... It is every citizens duty to at all times be armed, and to be trained at as early an age as possible to use said armament..."

The Second Amendment was written in the most unambiguous terms possible...
That is why the anti's have been trying to get it brought under the scope of the re-construction amendments; E.G.: The 14th...
Which now makes it ambiguous...

The Second Amendment does not state "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" Except...
IF your zip code is x...
OR your standing at y...
OR the type or class of weapon you have or desire to have is z...
OR if you wish to carry said weapon openly or concealed...
OR if you have met the requirements of State/Federal or other Municipality's training and licensing requirements...

The First Fundamental Principle of Constitutional Interpretation: Your Rights Don't Come From Government
Oath Keepers: CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC 101: YOUR RIGHTS DON’T COME FROM GOVERNMENT

[wolfhunter]

How was what I said a cheap shot at the uneducated? Do you think most framers in the days of the founders were educated? I think they used common sense. Some may have had an education but for the most part most didn't. It was the respondsibility of the father to train his son in the usage of any firearm they may have owned.

My statement was not about the level of education of our founders. Claiming the founding fathers shared your view of a requirement for training as a condition of gun ownership is "putting words in their mouths" and doesn't match their writings. This is a method of conning the uneducated.

[tnhawk]

Too many people have been educated beyond their level of intellegence.

[Midnight]

Education = indoctrination.

College is one of the biggest scams in America.

Though I hold a college degree, I would never have gone if I had to pay out of my own pocket.

[bigrebnc1861]

My statement was not about the level of education of our founders. Claiming the founding fathers shared your view of a requirement for training as a condition of gun ownership is "putting words in their mouths" and doesn't match their writings. This is a method of conning the uneducated.

Training with firearms was a common thing back when the founders were a live. Do you think they would have given a firearm to a person who had never used one before? The founders were smart men I am sure if they could have forseen that firearm usage would not be a common thing in America they would have added the requirement of training. Would you want to be on a gun range with a pewrson who has never shot a gun before, who was unsupervised?

[wolfhunter]

<snipped> Would you want to be on a gun range with a pewrson who has never shot a gun before, who was unsupervised?

I would consider it part of my personal responsibility to assist an untrained shooter. I prefer the fewest number of government regulations necessary on ANY given subject, and the correct number of regulations concerning God-given rights is ZERO. Anything else is a less than optimum compromise.

[Bohemian]

Training with firearms was a common thing back when the founders were a live. Do you think they would have given a firearm to a person who had never used one before? The founders were smart men I am sure if they could have forseen that firearm usage would not be a common thing in America they would have added the requirement of training. Would you want to be on a gun range with a pewrson who has never shot a gun before, who was unsupervised?

Actually, I think if the founders wanted any conditions to be placed on the Second Amendment they would have done so...

Thomas Jefferson once wrote "It is every citizens duty to at all times be armed, and to be trained at as early an age as possible to use said armament"...

Thomas Jefferson was known to always be armed and concealed more often then not... yet he never distinguished between the two in the Second Amendment; over-site? I think not...

In not one single piece of Thomas Jefferson's known writings including several variations of the Second Amendment did he even consider any exceptions to "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" ...

IF we allow the federal, state and other municipalities to dictate that training is required, then they must also dictate what level and what kind of training is required...
Which could obviously be a slippery slope...
Because they could mandate such criteria as you have to have a PhD in x, 10,000 hours of training in using the specific weapon you desire, put up a million dollar bond in cause you accidentally shoot somebody, have a renewable license that is subject to revocation at the discretion of governing body, etc...
IT WILL NEVER END...

Again, I think it is pretty easy to ensure that most people get some level of training without legislating it...

I have suggested tax incentives, others have suggested peer pressure...
There are many other ways I am sure that do not require big brother to dictate what/when/where/how Joe Smuck can buy a weapon...

[wolfhunter]

Bohemian, On the face of it, I can only say that if Bigreb wants everyone trained as a prerequisite to gun ownership, HE should volunteer to sponsor the training. Do you think 40 hours of Suarez- or Front Sight-level training at BigReb's place would suffice for any American wanting to own a firearm?

Bigreb, thanks for volunteering to sponsor this training.