Eye of the Tiger

[Ringo]

I think that if you have to ask yourself the question, you've got your answer.

[kengrubb]

The Dinkheller video is instructive, but we should check in on reality.

530 LEOs were feloniously slain between 1999 and 2008, 53 a year, and there's just over 700K sworn, serving LEOs.

I'm sure it's happened more often, if only once more, but I know of just one incident where a concealed carrier was killed by a criminal attacker. Mark Wilson during the Tyler Texas courthouse shooting. This was a more than somewhat unusual incident in that David Arroyo was wearing body armor and wielded a rifle.

Police officers by the nature of their work have to go into harms way. Conversely, under the same conditions, the law may well hold the private citizen to different expectations.

The archetype of the beast is out there, but they just aren't all that common and they're much more of a threat to cops than the 4 to 5 million concealed carriers.

[GLOCK9]

KenGrubb,

I Agree with you on the fact that LEOs Put themselves in Harms way Much more by the Nature of their Work...But Thats Just it, They Put Themselves there. I believe that the Average CW Carrier meets/greets and is around Just as many hardened criminals as a Police Officer....It's Just that the Average Citizen does not arouse the "beast". A Man out LOOKING for a Bear is Much more Likely to Have a Confrontation... because he was frankly Looking for one. Police officers Look for the confrontation..They Purposely Pull a Car over, Ask to Detain someone..Ask you Personal questions... That is their job if you look or act suspicious. They are Enforcing The Laws...They Put themselves in Harms way because of their Duty. The average Citizen just sees these very same people and cross the street, step aside or lets it go... It's Not a CW carriers job.
I do not question WHY I get into more fire-fights than most people... because Most people are Not working in the Rural Philippine provinces with Muslim or NPA Extremists... I'm Not enforcing Laws.. I'm protecting Property. So it's Not really a good comparison to say I'm held to the same standards. I can fire when others can't. I have no Laws to enforce.... I do not see where any CW Carriers have compared themselves or their duty to the police. When NOT working, I just Run from Gun Fire...Get the Hell away...Its Not My Job to investigate or get involved. But, Being Well Trained is another matter.... I believe if you carry a weapon, you should at least have the training and mental preparedness to use it if Trouble comes to you... I believe that it creates confidence that the criminal element sees and feels and will shy away from when an "average" person does cross their path EVERY Day in Real Life.
Just My 2 Cents and Worth Every Penny... Captain

[JJFlash]

It only takes one time and if that happens to be the one time you're not prepared physically and mentally, well...

[kengrubb]

In the words of Captain Sullenberger, most dangerous part of my job was driving to and from the airport.

I sometimes get the feeling there are those who believe Condition Yellow is only the beginning and flirt with the idea of Condition Orange on a daily basis.

[JJFlash]

In the words of Captain Sullenberger, most dangerous part of my job was driving to and from the airport.

I sometimes get the feeling there are those who believe Condition Yellow is only the beginning and flirt with the idea of Condition Orange on a daily basis.

So, what's your point?

[kengrubb]

So, what's your point?

It's useful and instructive to learn from the Newhall Incident, 1986 FBI Miami shootout, Steve Chaney & Mike Thompson (Ultimate Survivors video), et al. as well as from videos capturing the murder of Constable Lunsford or Deputy Dinkheller.

But reality for cops and reality for private citizens who carry, openly or concealed, are completely different.

I've been through some FOF at Firearms Academy of Seattle, and the key takeaway for me was that not every problem is a nail. In talking with others who've been through FAS, and other schools, they too seem to mostly identify the nail/hammer syndrome.

[JJFlash]

I can't disagree with that.

I guess my point has always been that the "average" CCW holder is ill-prepared for any kind of confrontation, particularly with a real determined BG. Too many of us go thru the minimal requirements, strap 'em on, and head out. Granted that our odds of encountering a BG in no way approximates that of an LEO, but we're all carrying so we obviously think there's some chance. I've carried legally for about 30 years (and longer otherwise) and have never even had occasion to think about drawing my sidearm. But I still carry, and I train fairly hard and consistently on the outside chance that I might have to. Whatever...I think if you carry, you must train, and have the mindset to be able to handle this kind of encounter. I have friends who don't carry, and their point-of-view is "what are the odds of having to use it?". That's their choice. I'll carry til I can't and know that I can use it effectively if I have to.

My .02 cents.