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CCW class shooting

This is a discussion on CCW class shooting within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Main Category category; Man accidentally shoots himself at gun class 10:21 AM, Mar. 9, 2011 | News-Leader staff Filed Under News Crime & ...

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    Default CCW class shooting

    Man accidentally shoots himself at gun class
    10:21 AM, Mar. 9, 2011 |

    News-Leader staff

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    Crime & Courts
    The Douglas County Sheriff is investigating the death of a man who accidentally shot himself while taking a class to obtain a permit to carry a concealed gun.

    Glenn Seymour was 63. He worked as a part-time dispatcher in Mountain Grove, said Douglas County Sheriff Chris Degase.


    “It was an accident,” said Degase. “It was a tragic event.”


    Degase said Seymour was one of multiple students taking the class at the Shooting Iron, a facility located about a mile north of Vanzant when the accident occurred Saturday afternoon.


    Degase said in interviewing witnesses, he determined Seymour, who was familiar with a revolver, told others that his revolver was having trouble, so he switched to a Browning semi-automatic 9 mm weapon.


    Students were working on an exercise where they pull their concealed weapon with their non-dominant hand, take the safety off, aim and shoot.


    Degase said that on the gun Seymour was using, the thumb of the right hand would normally manipulate the safety.


    It appeared to him that during the exercise Seymour was manipulating the safety with his left index finger, which got the gun turned around facing Seymour. One round hit him in the chest, Degase said.


    “Initially the call came in that the gun had been dropped and went off, but the trajectory of the bullet did not match up,” said the Sheriff.


    Degase said that in order to teach a Conceal and Carry class an instructor must pass either an instructor’s course offered by the National Rifle Association, or a law enforcement instructor course. Lesson plans must be approved by him.


    Degase said the instructor has been teaching the class for some time.


    “We’re going to go over the lesson plan, to be sure this doesn’t happen again,” said Degase.


    “I think prior to having them shoot left-handed, they probably should have spent more time on left hand manipulation prior to going live fire,” said Degase.

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    “I think prior to having them shoot left-handed, they probably should have spent more time on left hand manipulation prior to going live fire,” said Degase.
    Ya think? Damn, just damn. This sucks.

    Let me be sure I read it right: A guy who just just learning to handle a revolver, picks up a Browning Auto, probably the venerable P35 High Power, and they turn him loose on a left handed drill. Is that about it?

    “We’re going to go over the lesson plan, to be sure this doesn’t happen again,” said Degase.

    Uhh, Yeah.. Just too bad. That strange new gun should have been empty, and he should have been concentrating on Rule Three. But no point in Monday morning quarterbacking. Although it's common in my industry, I just hate to see people die so that someone learns to obey a safety rule.
    “The police of a State should never be stronger or better armed than the citizenry. An armed citizenry, willing to fight is the foundation of civil freedom.” Heinlein

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    Hamilton,

    You're not the only one MMQB'ing this issue. It's going to have a lot of us instructors evaluating if more safety precautions need to be taken.

    I've always been concerned that if someone has limited experience that we need to steer them away from any advanced training until they've logged some more time with their firearm.

    My biggest scare occurred outside the classroom with a friend. One of his buddies had a younger son that was learning more about firearms and was with us on the range working on safety. He had his BB gun with him and had been shooting with the big-boys from time to time. When I noticed he had put his chin directly on the muzzle of his BB gun I promptly took action to start talking at his level. Once he realized that the BB gun could hurt him just as easy as the big guns I asked what he should do, his response: Unload it, put it in the rack with yours, and wait my turn in the safe-zone.

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    Dorkfish. You are a little lost aren't you? Have not heard from you in a while. I hope all is well.

    Allen


    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkfish View Post
    Hamilton,

    You're not the only one MMQB'ing this issue. It's going to have a lot of us instructors evaluating if more safety precautions need to be taken.

    I've always been concerned that if someone has limited experience that we need to steer them away from any advanced training until they've logged some more time with their firearm.

    My biggest scare occurred outside the classroom with a friend. One of his buddies had a younger son that was learning more about firearms and was with us on the range working on safety. He had his BB gun with him and had been shooting with the big-boys from time to time. When I noticed he had put his chin directly on the muzzle of his BB gun I promptly took action to start talking at his level. Once he realized that the BB gun could hurt him just as easy as the big guns I asked what he should do, his response: Unload it, put it in the rack with yours, and wait my turn in the safe-zone.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. - Ronald Reagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by MADnMO View Post
    Dorkfish. You are a little lost aren't you? Have not heard from you in a while. I hope all is well.

    Allen

    It was until this article hit. It's got a bunch of us looking into our own programs to see if we need to change something.

    We made a change to our own a while back and this got me thinking it was a step in the right direction. Now I'm thinking we could go just a bit farther, not much, just a little.

    Of course, this one didn't help either. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...tions-director

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    As a Missouri resident, this issue has been discussed quite a bit on the Missouri Carry board. The trouble most of us (instructors included) are having with this is that no where in the Missouri CCW training is this type of practice specified. A beginner was doing something that should not have been attempted until after finishing a course on handguns. The Missouri qualification for shooting is pretty simple. 25 rounds thru a revolver, 25 rounds thru a semi-auto, pick one or the other, 20 rounds at a B-27 target at 7 yards, 15 of the 20 must hit somewhere in black on the target. No weak hand, single hand or anything special. Just show general gun safety, able to load and fire at target.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cardinalfan View Post
    As a Missouri resident, this issue has been discussed quite a bit on the Missouri Carry board. The trouble most of us (instructors included) are having with this is that no where in the Missouri CCW training is this type of practice specified. A beginner was doing something that should not have been attempted until after finishing a course on handguns. The Missouri qualification for shooting is pretty simple. 25 rounds thru a revolver, 25 rounds thru a semi-auto, pick one or the other, 20 rounds at a B-27 target at 7 yards, 15 of the 20 must hit somewhere in black on the target. No weak hand, single hand or anything special. Just show general gun safety, able to load and fire at target.

    Please understand that the information in the media is incomplete. It is not known if the technique being used at the time was part of a purchased advanced course, the class size on the range line, or what actually were the circumstances in the shooting are.

    So it would do the instructors some justice, not just the one(s) involved, to not regurgitate what's in the media as it could prove to be very incorrect. The business is keeping tight lipped on the matter, likely because an investigation is on-going.

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    Updated news article, still questioning the use of this technique in a CCW class, nothing in the training guide suggests this type of range work.

    Experts question use of technique in concealed-carry class | Springfield News-Leader | News-Leader.com

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    No words in the English language can express sorrow at a someone getting killed from an accident. My heart goes out to his family.
    If I read the article correctly, he violated the cardinal rule of safety--ALWAYS POINT THE MUZZLE OF A WEAPON IN A SAFE DIRECTION!!!!! You always have to be aware of the direction of potential discharge. I had that beat into my head(sometimes literally) by my father and grandfather from the time I was a child. Everyone please be careful around firearms and other dangerous tools. It could be you (or even worse) someone else. I hate reading where someone gets killed by simple careless mistakes that are totally preventable. Best wishes to everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkfish View Post
    Hamilton,

    You're not the only one MMQB'ing this issue. It's going to have a lot of us instructors evaluating if more safety precautions need to be taken.

    I've always been concerned that if someone has limited experience that we need to steer them away from any advanced training until they've logged some more time with their firearm.
    This is the biggest fear an instructor has. Such things happen so quickly one barely has time to act. Since reading this article I've thought a lot about the way we handle the firing line. We're now using four instructors on the line... one per student. The instructor stays right with the student and doesn't take his eyes off.
    Raid!!! Kills bugs dead.

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