Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought

[BlueMR2]

He should have been booted on the 1st incedent. This isn't a class on mulching a garden. There should be no tolerance for this behavior in these classes.

I would agree that some really major first incident might warrant removal (purposefully pointing loaded gun at someone), but I'd have to disagree if it's "minor" (as in accidental).

While we don't want people endangering others at these events, they ARE here for training. Some need it far worse than others. If they're unable or unwilling to accept training (like that guy), then they need to go. If they make mistakes, but ARE learning, well, you then have to decide if it's safer to keep the guy there and keep training him, or let him loose on the rest of us in the outside world as-is... :-O

[BC1]

I would agree that some really major first incident might warrant removal (purposefully pointing loaded gun at someone), but I'd have to disagree if it's "minor" (as in accidental).

While we don't want people endangering others at these events, they ARE here for training. Some need it far worse than others. If they're unable or unwilling to accept training (like that guy), then they need to go. If they make mistakes, but ARE learning, well, you then have to decide if it's safer to keep the guy there and keep training him, or let him loose on the rest of us in the outside world as-is... :-O

It's a tough call. Some students are great shooters but when they must move and shoot they have safety issues. It's new to them and it takes some practice/training. We tried to work with him at first to train him properly but he was uncooperative. At that point we must think of the safety of everyone else. But that's why I started this thread. I'm always interested in the perspective of experienced shooters. Thanks for contributing.

[retirednak]

I think you did the right thing. At our local range we had a young kid who thought he knew everything,yet did everything wrong including looking down the barrel of his loaded gun,pointed it at everything but what he was supposed to. The instructor threw him out the second time he pointed it in the wrong direction. Problem is most kids are raised by the TV and they think that's the right way to do things. Not enough man training at home in most cases.

[G50AE]

...that's why I started this thread. I'm always interested in the perspective of experienced shooters. Thanks for contributing.

A smart person learns from their mistakes, a wise person learns from other people's mistakes.

[Anubis]

Forget the safety violations on day 2. I would have ejected him after the second disruption of the lecture on day 1.

[jtg452]

This weekend I held the class "NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home." Saturday was eight hours of lecture, bookwork, demonstration and dry-fire exercises. I had one student who felt the need to interject his opinion on everything that was said. He was bogging us down and we couldn't keep him quiet. I was the lead instructor and had two other NRA instructors and a SWAT weapons instructor working the class as we like a one-to-one instructor/student ratio during the live fire parts of the class.

Well today (Sunday) was the advanced live-fire exercises. Sixteen students overall and four at a time on the line (with four instructors). Then this particular student came on the line. Look out! He had much difficulty following instructions. First, we found him looking down the barrel of his loaded .45. He was warned and advised of the safety violations. A few minutes later another instructor caught him looking down the barrel. He was warned again and argued that he was not compromising safety on the firing line. Then the police trainer caught him loading the gun while pointing it directly at him. Lastly, I caught him with the loaded gun turned toward himself wiping some smudges off it. He then looked down the barrel again.

The police instructor requested he hand over the gun and step off the line. He refused. The LEO warned him to turn over the gun or he would forceably take it and arrest him. He begrudgingly gave it up. I locked the gun in the clubhouse and returned to the range to find him arguing that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Tried to tell me all the other instructors were wrong. These are well trained instructors with intuitive knowledge and extensive experience in personal protection. I believe they acted in the best interest of the club, the other students and our own personal safety (even though we all wear vests during live-fire). I refunded his money and repossessed his NRA certificate of completion. When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).

In the event he shot himself or another student you can bet we would have been named in any lawsuit. Although we carry $6,000,000 liability insurance between us I believed that allowing him to continue presented significant liability to all involved. Ignorance at it's best. yet he's had a CCW permit for 25 years.I thought the LEO was going to choke him as he wouldn't shut up until threatened with police intervention.

The best part was that we had another instructor teaching "NRA Basic Pistol" in the clubhouse and this occurred while he was covering handgun safety. Those students got a good look at stupidity in action.

What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.

In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.

You handled it fine BUT, if it had been me, he woulda been gone after the SECOND violation of range safety rules.

The first time, he made a mistake, it was corrected and the WHY of what he was doing was wrong and dangerous was explained to him.

That means the SECOND time he did it he knew better and knowingly violated the rules. Since he 'knows better than you do' (apparently he believes so since he chose to argue), as far as I'm concerned, he can 'know better' someplace else. He was endangering those around him with his careless gun handling and is putting both the range and the instructor cadre in legal jeopardy and needed to be removed.