Stopping power / cal. ??'s

[Daven]

Ok, we've all heard the old wives tales about caliber. How a .22 won't kill someone who is heavy or stoned. How a 357 will go through the person, wall and tree behind it, etc.

I have seen show's and documentaries about this and know when shooting through a fridge, sofa, counter, or other blockade, almost all calibers do it. Some not as effective as others. But most do.

SO, the question is this, I have my 1911 in .45 which I love, but I am in the market for a BUG and am highly thinking about a Bodyguard .38 cal. I rented a 38 at the range today and was very impressed. It wasn't the bodyguard, but the basic J-Frame. I've never been much into wheel gun's but this one impressed me.

So, as my 1911 is my primary, and having a 38 as a back up gun, what do you think? I welcome any opinions.

also, on rare occasions I will leave my 1911 at home and only carry the 38 as a pocket gun. How likely are the changes it WON'T stop an attacker?

And yes, I have heard that more people die from .22's than from any other calibers. I don't think that's true, but who knows.

Thanks,

Gimpy.

[Treo]

More people die from .22s because there are soooo many of them out there it's true. As for Handgun stopping power it's a myth. You want stopping power get a rifle. This week marks the 25th aniversary of the "Miami Shootout" in which 2 heavily armed bank robbers took out 4 FBI agents killing two of them.

The reason I bring that up is because according to the reports one of the agents fired what later turned out to be a killing shot into one of the robbers the very first shot. After taking that shot the robber was able to take on the FBI agents and kill two of them. His partner was able (after sustaining a head shot from a pistol) was able to exit their vehicle and make it to an empty FBI vehicle and continue the fight.

"Stopping Power" on a hand gun comes from multiple hits.

[Nightmare45]

Stopping power is hitting the target with any round that stops the attack. With that, 1/2 mass times velocity squared.

[Felix]

Platt was the guy who did all the damage...killed two FBI agents and seriously wounded four more with a Mini-14. Was shot 12 times before going down for good.

His buddy Matix didn't provide much support for the team. Fired one birdshot round total from a 12 ga. Died after six hits.

Result, two dead serial bank robbers, two dead FBI agents and four more seriously injured...all by .223 rounds.

4½ minutes, ~150 shots exchanged.

So yea, don't take a knife to a gunfight. And keep your head down if you've got a handgun and the other guy's using a centerfire rifle.

[Treo]

Platt was the guy who did all the damage...killed two FBI agents and seriously wounded four more with a Mini-14. Was shot 12 times before going down for good.His buddy Matix didn't provide much support for the team. Fired one birdshot round total from a 12 ga. Died after six hits.Result, two dead serial bank robbers, two dead FBI agents and four more seriously injured...all by .223 rounds.

4½ minutes, ~150 shots exchanged.

So yea, don't take a knife to a gunfight. And keep your head down if you've got a handgun and the other guy's using a centerfire rifle.

I think you miss the point of my post, I emphasised it in your post for your convenience

[Chief1297]

Here are my simple thoughts. Especially with the two calibers you have listed, it is all about shot placement and following up until the threat stops. Beforehand, it is all about evaluating your specific threat and trying to make an educated decision, weapons capability and limitations knowledge, training and practice. For example. In my case, i am perfectly comfortable in my local area to be armed with a 5 shot .357 snubby. When I travel (especially through high crime areas), i bump up my carry to a 1911 with the snubby in the car. Car jackings and gang activity is not prevalent in my area. Home break ins and stop-and -rob scenarios are more likely. Could my evaluation be wrong, well, yes, but more than likely it will be the scenarios I listed. The 38 will do the job if you do.

[G50AE]

A hit with a .22 does a heck of a lot more damage than a miss with a handgrenade.

[Hamilton Felix]

Yep, lots of people get killed with .22 rounds; there are lots of .22's out there. But very few are instantly stopped. There's a huge difference between stopping and lethality. And since one shoots to STOP [the threat], not to kill (never say your intention was to kill), we should be interested in stopping power. I think the Hatcher formula or Cooper's Short Form are good estimates for pistol rounds, though recent advances in bullet design make them a bit dated. Marshall & Sanow have written some fascinating (and much debated, of course) books on stopping power.

I, too, carry a .45 ACP. I believe in big bullets, bore area and momentum. My Beloved Kathleen recently downsized from her old duty .357 (could only be carried in a purse, given the way she dresses) to a nice Magnaported Airweight Centennial loaded with +P .38 Special JHP ammo. (If any female readers wonder how she carries, go to Naturally Concealed - Home and check it out; she loves it.) I think a .45 primary and .38 Special BUG would be hard to beat. Now, will the backup to the backup be a .32 or a .22?? :-)

[aj's 40 cal]

More people die from .22s because there are soooo many of them out there it's true. As for Handgun stopping power it's a myth. You want stopping power get a rifle. This week marks the 25th aniversary of the "Miami Shootout" in which 2 heavily armed bank robbers took out 4 FBI agents killing two of them.

The reason I bring that up is because according to the reports one of the agents fired what later turned out to be a killing shot into one of the robbers the very first shot. After taking that shot the robber was able to take on the FBI agents and kill two of them. His partner was able (after sustaining a head shot from a pistol) was able to exit their vehicle and make it to an empty FBI vehicle and continue the fight.

"Stopping Power" on a hand gun comes from multiple hits.

this is why i went with the .40 s&w over a 9mm, and why the f.b.i. added this round to their duty belts. no bullet unless a .50 will get you a one drp hit, but a .40 and .45 will be your best bet in getting close to it.

[Naybor]

Gimpy,

The .38 is a good choice. Was the LEO caliber of choice for many years. We got a Ruger SP101 .357 for the wife cause she couldn't rack the slide on an auto. She shoots .38 special + P for SD and loves it. I got a Ruger LCP .380 for a BUG and it's become my warm weather primary. I say now I wouldn't go lower than a .380, but for years and years my primary was a .25 auto. It did stop a carjacking/robbery with no shots fired, so I guess it did it's job. ANY weapon can be a deterrent, although Treo is right (for once) about so many .22's being the reason for so many deaths. Almost everyone has one or two .22 handguns and rifles. Usually bigger is better, but CC does require compromises. If I could conceal a Ruger Blackhawk .41 Magnum (my favorite handgun of all time) with an 8" barrel, it would be my only CCW.

The caliber used, as a rule, is a compromise for CCW, but ANYTHING is better than nothing for SD.