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What to carry with stopping power

This is a discussion on What to carry with stopping power within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Main Category category; Glock 33....357 sig...

  1. #41
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    Glock 33....357 sig

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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleeyes View Post
    Bikenut notice the question marks in my reply ..

    ''correct me if i'm wrong but if you are in a position of trying to defend yourself against a perp and you missed and hit an innocent bystander or even the perps partner in crime or someones car the charge goes still to the perp ? being you wouldn't have had your gun out if you wasn't trying to defend yourself?? i'm in florida and thought that is how that worked here but i could have misunderstood .......'''

    i am trying to get answers here not saying that's the law .....i'm trying to find that law myself or more about it

    so if you find any info on liability concerning this matter please let me know
    First of all let me make it clear that in my reply I will be using the word .... "you" .... but I'm using it in the general sense to apply to anyone and everyone ... and not personalizing it to mean ... you ... Eagleeyes. Ok?

    Well... I'm basing my questioning of any law that absolves the person firing the gun from damage done with bullets that hit innocents in Michigan... and let me stress I'm only talking about Michigan! on my understanding of .........

    CARELESS, RECKLESS, OR NEGLIGENT USE OF FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 45 of 1952


    752.861 Careless, reckless or negligent use of firearms; penalty.

    Sec. 1.

    Any person who, because of carelessness, recklessness or negligence, but not wilfully or wantonly, shall cause or allow any firearm under his immediate control, to be discharged so as to kill or injure another person, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 2 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 1 year, in the discretion of the court.

    Law can be read here:

    Michigan Legislature - Section 752.861

    Self defense actions that killed or injured the one attacking you being justified is covered under other laws... however... if I'm reading it correctly this law would still apply to your bullet killing or injuring someone who wasn't attacking. And the law is basically saying you own every bullet that comes out of your gun.

    And shooting willy nilly missing the bad guy but hitting innocents can be considered "carelessness, recklessness or negligence". Even though you didn't "willfully" or "wantonly" shoot that old guy a block away... but because you carelessly, recklessly, were shooting and missing... or were negligent in being aware of what was behind your target (didn't see the old fart)... you are responsible/liable for any damage that bullet did.

    Or............ as I said.... I'm not trying to be a jerk... just would love to see a law from any State that holds the attacker responsible for damage someone else does and absolves the person firing the gun from harm their bullets do to innocents just because they were attacked.

    As for property damage... it really doesn't matter how or what you were using to damage property... as in a baseball bat slipping out of your hands and hitting my car... or your bullet missing a perp and hitting my car... either way you damaged my car. Granted... that would be a civil thing that might not (or might) also involve criminal prosecution.

    I am NOT an attorney! The above is merely my understanding of the issue of folks being responsible for every bullet that comes out of their gun regardless of why that bullet came out.

    And since it is my understanding.......... I could be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cougar98332 View Post
    Moonpie, why would you recommend an inferior gun/caliber combo. I say get a 357 mag, either an s&w or a ruger, 5 or 6 shot, 3" barrel (or whatever length youre able to control and conceal) and all steel.
    Well....to each his own...but in the real world, you may be very good at the range in shooting, can one maintain that calm when a person is firing back? One is better off getting a handgun with more than 5 or 6 shots.....besides....i always think of potential.....i am in the city and four thugs try to carjack me....i better be dead on with each shot, NOT get hit in their crossfire and make sure i have no problems with ammo feeds or misfires....as for inferior pistol? again to each his own...but the glock is tried and proven in the field of battle.....say what you want but when you life depends on it, ill take a glock over a SW....sorry

  5. #45
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    I carry a glock 22 and a DB380 for a backup gun, however today I ordered 2 speedloaders and will be carrying my
    357 at times also. We get open carry come November 1st so I really am only planning on carrying 357 as open carry
    but it is 4" barrel and can be carried concealed.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    First of all let me make it clear that in my reply I will be using the word .... "you" .... but I'm using it in the general sense to apply to anyone and everyone ... and not personalizing it to mean ... you ... Eagleeyes. Ok?

    Well... I'm basing my questioning of any law that absolves the person firing the gun from damage done with bullets that hit innocents in Michigan... and let me stress I'm only talking about Michigan! on my understanding of .........

    CARELESS, RECKLESS, OR NEGLIGENT USE OF FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 45 of 1952


    752.861 Careless, reckless or negligent use of firearms; penalty.

    Sec. 1.

    Any person who, because of carelessness, recklessness or negligence, but not wilfully or wantonly, shall cause or allow any firearm under his immediate control, to be discharged so as to kill or injure another person, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 2 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 1 year, in the discretion of the court.

    Law can be read here:

    Michigan Legislature - Section 752.861

    Self defense actions that killed or injured the one attacking you being justified is covered under other laws... however... if I'm reading it correctly this law would still apply to your bullet killing or injuring someone who wasn't attacking. And the law is basically saying you own every bullet that comes out of your gun.

    And shooting willy nilly missing the bad guy but hitting innocents can be considered "carelessness, recklessness or negligence". Even though you didn't "willfully" or "wantonly" shoot that old guy a block away... but because you carelessly, recklessly, were shooting and missing... or were negligent in being aware of what was behind your target (didn't see the old fart)... you are responsible/liable for any damage that bullet did.

    Or............ as I said.... I'm not trying to be a jerk... just would love to see a law from any State that holds the attacker responsible for damage someone else does and absolves the person firing the gun from harm their bullets do to innocents just because they were attacked.

    As for property damage... it really doesn't matter how or what you were using to damage property... as in a baseball bat slipping out of your hands and hitting my car... or your bullet missing a perp and hitting my car... either way you damaged my car. Granted... that would be a civil thing that might not (or might) also involve criminal prosecution.

    I am NOT an attorney! The above is merely my understanding of the issue of folks being responsible for every bullet that comes out of their gun regardless of why that bullet came out.

    And since it is my understanding.......... I could be wrong.
    Too late to dig deeper but Florida law does hold the perp responsible for the death caused by the victim of an innocent bystander if it was a felony being commited by the perp.

    782.04 Murder.—
    (1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
    1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
    2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
    a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
    b. Arson,
    c. Sexual battery,
    d. Robbery,
    e. Burglary,
    f. Kidnapping,
    g. Escape,
    h. Aggravated child abuse,
    i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
    j. Aircraft piracy,
    k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
    l. Carjacking,
    m. Home-invasion robbery,
    n. Aggravated stalking,
    o. Murder of another human being,
    p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
    q. Aggravated fleeing or eluding with serious bodily injury or death,
    r. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
    3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium, or methadone by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,

    is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.
    (b) In all cases under this section, the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 shall be followed in order to determine sentence of death or life imprisonment.
    (2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (3) When a human being is killed during the perpetration of, or during the attempt to perpetrate, any:
    (a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
    (b) Arson,
    (c) Sexual battery,
    (d) Robbery,
    (e) Burglary,
    (f) Kidnapping,
    (g) Escape,
    (h) Aggravated child abuse,
    (i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
    (j) Aircraft piracy,
    (k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
    (l) Carjacking,
    (m) Home-invasion robbery,
    (n) Aggravated stalking,
    (o) Murder of another human being,
    (p) Aggravated fleeing or eluding with serious bodily injury or death,
    (q) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
    (r) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism,

    by a person other than the person engaged in the perpetration of or in the attempt to perpetrate such felony, the person perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate such felony commits murder in the second degree, which constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by S&W645 View Post
    Too late to dig deeper but Florida law does hold the perp responsible for the death caused by the victim of an innocent bystander if it was a felony being commited by the perp.
    I read the Florida law you cited (and I sincerely appreciate folks who cite to actual law!) several times but, although the criminal is held accountable for any collateral damage that arises from his committing the crime (and that is a very good thing!).... I didn't see any stated immunity for the person who fired the shot in self defense that hit an innocent bystander.

    Perhaps I'm reading that law incorrectly but to me it reads that if the person defending themselves fires a shot that hits an innocent bystander the criminal can be charged... but it doesn't say the defender can't also be charged. So this law appears to be a way of adding an extra charge to the criminal................. but doesn't absolve the defender. So it would still be possible for the prosecutor to charge both the criminal AND the defender for the shot the defender fired that hit an innocent.

    So even though, in Florida at least, the criminal is held responsible and liable.........the person who fires the shot... even if the shot was fired in self defense... that hits an innocent bystander is still also responsible and liable for any damage/harm that bullet causes up to, and including, causing the death of an innocent bystander.

    Or are there other laws that actually state some kind of immunity for the defender?

  8. #48
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    Carry whatever you can shoot well, I believe "stopping power" is over-rated. You want a gun which you shoot accurately and can get rounds to the perp's center mass. If you can shoot a .40 or .45 and do that, fine. I myself carry a Bersa Thunder .380 IWB loaded woth Corbon Pwrball or Hornady Critical Defense ammo, and if I put my rounds in center mass I have confidence it will stop him. Learn to shoot your gun well, whatever caliber it is and you have the better chance of winning in a gun fight.


  9. #49
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    gunsandgardens is offline Brian F.
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    Stopping power / accuracy / comfortability

    Pick two.
    We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists. - Patrick Henry

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    Quote Originally Posted by cluznar View Post
    Carry whatever you can shoot well, I believe "stopping power" is over-rated. You want a gun which you shoot accurately and can get rounds to the perp's center mass. If you can shoot a .40 or .45 and do that, fine. I myself carry a Bersa Thunder .380 IWB loaded woth Corbon Pwrball or Hornady Critical Defense ammo, and if I put my rounds in center mass I have confidence it will stop him. Learn to shoot your gun well, whatever caliber it is and you have the better chance of winning in a gun fight.

    How could stopping power be over rated?

    Jeff Cooper summed it up well, Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (Accuracy, Power, Speed) DVC
    “An armed society is a polite society.”

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