.45acp vs 9mm

mikelang15 · #51 10-14-2009, 12:47 AM

Massad ayoob the most recognized gun/shooting expert in the business, Has a video called shoot to live. In this video he explained how the 9mm if using the right round is more effective as far as stopping power. For those who are already saying "BS!" Just hear me out. The .45 has over the years been given the title "Man Stoppers" But in the early days of the .45 the types of people they were fighting were averaged to be 130-140 lbs. And these men were usually under fed and in poor health, Their muscle make up and general health was poor also. So if you were to use a .45 on an average American 175-200 lbs who is well in health and in all around good condition you would see that a .45 is not gonna have close to the desired perception of him flying off of his feet being stopped with one shot.But a 9mm HYDRA SHOK or COR BON rounds (ayoobs choice for carry as well as mine) Has a consistent record of stopping threats and ending bad situation all around, The hollowed point of a hydra shok has a little pin in the middle of hit increasing the "mushroom" effect as the bullet enters a target as well as making sure shirt and jacket material dosen't clog the round keeping it from expanding properly. The 9mm has a better record of staying in the mody of your attacker decreasing dangers of friendly targets in background as well as maximizing the force of the "shock and aww" . Basically if you have a large round that goes straight through a target you take away the point of shooting a threat. I mean if you shoot at a dangerous individual trying to cause harm to you or another innoccent believe me you are gonna want a round that effects them on impact that hits hard and stays in causing great inconveniece as far as them trying to stay in the fight. The most common reason a bad guy stops fighting is he loses the ability if you shoot an attacker and the bullet goes right through 90% of the wound is gonna close back up because the inside of the human body as far as muscle goes is like elastic, if a hole is poked through a body the muscles and tissue close up rapidly sealing the wound and stopping alot of bleeding, So you are gonna want a bullet that gonna hit with force, make a large and jagged wound channel keeping it opened so air can cause the blood and energy to literally flow from the body ending a gun fight or armed encounter alot faster ..... I love the field of ballistics to the point i could go on for hours but i am off to work now, If you would like to hear more about the differences between rounds, or just give your opinion or experiences i would love to talk more with you, But if you wanna great video to watch on this very topic Watch shoot to live from massad ayoob i believe it is on YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.. This is my first post and first night as a member so i look foreward to speaking and reading with you guys in the future.

Stay safe and be nice guys!

melloyello · #52 10-19-2009, 03:50 AM

Mikelang15 - was there anything wrt 40 S&W.

Also, can you find the title of the You Tube clip?

Personally, I think the debate should go toward ballistics and bullet types.
It's the transfer of energy that relates to stopping power and that depends a lot on the bullet.

I've had a similar debate about AR15s, AK-47s and AR-10's.
Somehow when they chose a pistol they selected a 40 over the 9mm for stopping power.
But they want AR-15s over AR-10's (.223 over .308 with 2-3 times the energy)

utaker · #53 10-20-2009, 01:21 AM

you are kind of right , melloyellow.
the great debate about ak's, ar's and such is more about design and accuracy than power, but i do agree. ballistics should play a big part of it but not all of it........whatever round anyone considers a 'manstopper' wont do any good if you cant hit the target.
i started my wife on the lowley 22, now she can confidently hit at 25 yards with my eagle. although i know what she can do to a stationary target ( and i pray she never has to find out about a live target) i bought her a 9mm glock with night sights and i installed a lasermax sight so even with fmj's i know she will hit her opponent.

Glock Fan · #54 10-20-2009, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by utaker

you are kind of right , melloyellow.
the great debate about ak's, ar's and such is more about design and accuracy than power, but i do agree. ballistics should play a big part of it but not all of it........whatever round anyone considers a 'manstopper' wont do any good if you cant hit the target.
i started my wife on the lowley 22, now she can confidently hit at 25 yards with my eagle. although i know what she can do to a stationary target ( and i pray she never has to find out about a live target) i bought her a 9mm glock with night sights and i installed a lasermax sight so even with fmj's i know she will hit her opponent.

I strongly recommend using HP or other "expanding" type of ammo for SD. FMJ rounds are great for the range, but could be extremely hazardous if used in a defensive situation.

gf

utaker · #55 10-21-2009, 01:06 PM

true... i use hollow points or extreme penetrsating rounds in all of my guns.

Ropadope · #56 10-21-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by utaker

i bought her a 9mm glock with night sights and i installed a lasermax sight so even with fmj's i know she will hit her opponent.

How does night sights and a Lasermax guarantee that she's going to hit her target ??

I'd work more on trigger follow through, proper sight radius, remedial action of jams and a whole host of other things in the tactical/defensive use of a handgun.

Gizzmo's won't guarantee anything, unless you wanna impress your unknowing friends with lasers and gimmicks hanging off your gun.

Just a thought.

For you tactical type enthusiasts here's Todd Jarret and his reload drills. Worth watching.

YouTube - Blackhawk Shooting Tips with Todd...

Shooting on the move with Todd Jarret. "It's not hard, it's harder"

YouTube - Blackhawk Shooting Tips with Todd...

Proper grip with Todd Jarret

YouTube - Todd Jarrett on pistol shooting.

Close range gun fighting. Reality vs Myth.

YouTube - Close-Range Gunfighting

melloyello · #57 10-21-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glock Fan

I strongly recommend using HP or other "expanding" type of ammo for SD. FMJ rounds are great for the range, but could be extremely hazardous if used in a defensive situation.

gf

That's an excellent recommendation Glock Fan. You really can't compare a 45 vs 9mm (or 40 S&W for that matter) without taking into account the types of bullets. They make a huge difference in penetration and stopping power. We (spouse and friends) practice with FMJs, (S)WC, or LRN but prefer HP or HP/XTP for personal defense.

utaker · #58 10-22-2009, 01:11 AM

well, i didnt want to bore you with all the details. ( sarcastic) but i have years of military training and police training. no , gizmos wont garauntee anything but before i got my wife her own gun, i made damn sure she knew how to handle it....that includes tactical shooting and jam clearing. for someone who was never in a situaton where you needed to use firearms to save your life, just for her to know its there helps calm her nerves....which is the main reason for a trained person to miss

6shootercarry · #59 10-22-2009, 01:11 AM

Well it's a done deal... S&W M&P 45acp... Picked it up today!!!

(Pictures added to my albums)... I don't argue that the ammo used will have a great deal of impact (had to go there) on the stopping power regardless of the caliber, but with a slower heavy round the chance of punching through is less. I’m not a ballistics expert, but with some real world testing I have seen the difference first hand. Both my friends Steve and Steve had this very discussion some years ago. We brought some empty anti-freeze containers filled with sand and water and tops put back on tight to the range to do some testing. 9mm vs .45acp and 44Mag…
The most “visible and violent” damage to the jugs was done by the 44Mag (that’s a no brain-er and the reason folks carry them in bear country). The .45acp was next as far as apparent damage (size of the hole in and out, amount of tearing damage done, as well as water displaced at the initial impact) things of that nature. No it’s not controlled scientific data collection, but what I saw made an impression on me. The 9mm did damage but was visibly less then the others. So I chose to go with the 45acp. Again using the right ammo will make a difference. Since most of us do not have access to controlled conditions, endless ammo selection and vats of ballistic gel, we have to rely on the data produced by the labs. For every opinion there is a counter opinion. Good information to read and review when it’s posted in one place…

Ropadope · #60 10-22-2009, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by utaker

well, i didnt want to bore you with all the details. ( sarcastic) but i have years of military training and police training.

That doesn't say much to me. What training besides qualifiying once a year in the military did you have ? What advanced courses have you attended while in the military ? SFAUC ? SOTIC ? Train with Paul Howe ? Jim Smith ? or serve with a Tier One unit ?? How often did your unit conduct live fire exercises ?? Any ? if at all ? Have you ever low crawled to your objective with a M60 gunner putting suppressive fire live rounds in front of you while you are still crawling ??? Wanna know what's that's like ?

As far as police training goes, I can get my 15 year old son up to speed in a weekend.

Military training and LEO training say's to me you know how to hold and to reload a simple rifle and shotgun platform. And you've shot at some paper targets with a duty sidearm.

Am I supposed to be impressed with you ???

By the way it's "SEALs" ..................not "S.E.A.L.S".......................I don't know anybody in the NSW community that would period the acronym. It's a sure sign of someone that know's little if anything regarding the NSW brotherhood.