Sig sauer p238

[LPC1625]

Punch, all very well thought out points. Only military I know of that's carried a 1911 type pistol without a chambered round cocked and locked is the Israeli army and they teach the slide rack as part of the draw, it's very effective, but more room for mistake than flipping a safety lever in my opinion. To pull and cock during the draw I think leaves even more room for error as well because with a 1911, to have it ready to cock on draw and fire would require decocking the gun on a chambered round. All the 1911 manuals I've seen have had a warning such as the following:
WARNING: NEVER ATTEMPT TO CARRY YOUR PISTOL WITH THE HAMMER DOWN ON A LIVE CARTRIDGE. THIS WOULD REQUIRE YOU TO DECOCK THE PISTOL WITH A LIVE ROUND IN THE CHAMBER. DECOCKING THE HAMMER OVER A LIVE ROUND SHOULD NEVER BE ATTEMPTED. TO DO SO COULD RESULT IN SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH TO YOU OR OTHERS. **taken from the following link on a Bing search for "1911 manual" but the same or similar is in all the 1911 type manuals I've seen http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore...911_Manual.pdf **

I've found with the small hammer on a P238, when cocked it's actually tucked into the beavertail well enough it's not much to snag on and with my draw for the P238, I find the big chunky night sights to be a much easier item to snag on (although I'd not give those up for anything). When I draw I take ahold of the pistol with my middle and ring finger on the grip and my thumb on the beavertail and hammer, once it clears my holster my thumb slips around the side to disengage the safety as I bring it up to target and my finger goes at the trigger. It also allows me to use my thumb to give the top edge of the holster a push if needed to assist in getting the pistol drawn as I'm swiping around to the safety. Really anyone pocket carrying any gun should be more concerned the about the pocket size and access than the gun.

As far as the Condition goes, I fully agre with the mindset that as long as the safety in your head works, no carry condition is any safer than the others because someone will always eventually end up hurt when an idiot has a gun. It is totally just a matter of how ready you want to be and what method you train for. Whatever method you train with you should stick with.

[Old Zebra]

I carry my P238 during t-shirt and shorts weather in Arizona. With belted shorts, I carry in a pocket holster; with elastic-waist shorts I use a SmartCarry. And when I carry, the gun is in condition one with the hammer back. Although the Sig safety on this gun is very reliable, I do make a point to check it after every cleaning.

Gotta say though, despite lots of practice, I was never able to develop a fast, smooth draw from the front pocket of my jeans. The gun and the holster are not the problem...it's the snug pockets on jeans. So for concealed carry in long pants, I carry a 9mm Colt New Agent in a belt holster. At age 70, I'm no longer comfortable carrying a 5" 1911...it stays at home.

[Punch]

Punch, all very well thought out points. Only military I know of that's carried a 1911 type pistol without a chambered round cocked and locked is the Israeli army and they teach the slide rack as part of the draw, it's very effective, but more room for mistake than flipping a safety lever in my opinion.

I think that you should research this a bit more. A lot of manuals from the period state that the 1911 should not be carried with a round in the chamber unless combat is imminent. My Grandfather, who gave me the 1911 that I have and who carried it for 27 years through the Honduran crisis of the 1920's, WWII, and Korea as well as his service as a Military Attache for the US in both Syria and Ethiopia in the 1950's told me that the 1911, being a secondary weapon, was ALWAYS carried with an empty chamber unless combat was imminent. In fact, it is impossible to fit a cocked and locked 1911 into the holster (US Army issue, 1943) that he gave me with the pistol. In addition, Sykes and Fairbaine in their book "Shooting to Live" state that the 1911 should NEVER be carried with a round in the chamber, and that the safeties should be pinned so that they do not get in the way! All these pre-date the forming of the nation of Israel, so it would seem that Israel adopted the common practice for the time rather than being any kind of a trend setter. Bob Pincus, a firearms trainer of some regard here in the US, lamented that it was impossible to teach ambush drills to European police forces due to the still prevalent practice of carrying pistols on an empty chamber by regulation (and in some cases, law) in Europe. I also know the carrying the Makarov on an empty chamber is standard in Russia, even with the Special Forces there. And this is a double action pistol! So ingrained is this practice.

From my research, the exception to the above practice was (and still remains) with certain Special Forces units that could carry pretty much what they want however they want. The key here is that the weapon should be carried unchambered unless "combat is imminent". Civilian and Police use of the 1911 pretty much demands that the weapon be carried in Condition 1 due to the probability of surprise. If we KNEW that we would be getting into a scrap on a given day, we would be carrying something other than a pistol, at least I would.

Again, this should not influence how a person carries a 1911 today. I am simply making the point that the pistols in question were not designed to be carried in Condition 1, but were designed to be able to be carried in Condition 1 when the situation warranted.

BTW - "Shooting to Live" is available on the Internet in a PDF file. It is an interesting read, and an enlightenment on how some things were done "back then". Different world than now!

[LPC1625]

Civilian and Police use of the 1911 pretty much demands that the weapon be carried in Condition 1 due to the probability of surprise. If we KNEW that we would be getting into a scrap on a given day, we would be carrying something other than a pistol, at least I would.

BTW - "Shooting to Live" is available on the Internet in a PDF file. It is an interesting read, and an enlightenment on how some things were done "back then". Different world than now!

You have a better way of putting that I guess. It's not so much that condition one is the safest, it's just the most ready therefore the best solution for being surprised as a concealed carry citizen. I just consider practicing how you carry to be the most important part of the training/practice and how you carry shouldn't be altered from one occasion to the next. In those surprise situations it causes need to think when muscle memory kicking in is what is needed.

I will definately check it out, seems like it would be good reading by what else you stated. Thanks.

[Firefighterchen]

I carry the 238 in my front pocket no problems. But I am always open to learning more, what are the variety of reasons its bad?

You didn't mention if it was in a holster or not. If not, then there are consistency problems in that each time it is drawn, it may be in a different location.

Drawing consistently the right way every time is important, in my opinion, to ensure there is no fumbling when you really need it.

Drawing from the pocket when sitting is problematic. You also didn't mention if it was front or rear pocket. Of course, front pocket is much harder.

While the safety on the P238 is better than a standard 1911 (again, my opinion), there is still the possibility that it can come off while in the pocket and not using a holster.

Plus, the smaller the gun, the more you have to get out there and practice. The small sight radius makes accuracy more difficult to obtain. Most civilians do not practice as much as they should if they carry concealed.

Lastly, again - my opinion - the .380 is an underpowered cartridge and is not suitable -- in most situations -- for consistent success in self-defense circumstances.

Bottom line - if the P238 works for you and you are confident the .380 caliber it will do the job you want it to do, and you can consistently present it and fire in about 1.5 to 2 seconds from a sitting position, and you are accurate with it out to at least 10 yards firing as fast as you can -- great!

But -- again, my opinion -- the .380 cartridge is not adequate for self-defense, and pocket carry is not as good as strong side hip, even if it's carried in a pocket holster.

Forgot to subscribe to this thread!!!

Yes it is in a holster in my pocket. Same draw every time.

[HootmonSccy]

I've read through most of the posts.. My wife has the P238..
Going back the the OP question.. There seems to be a half cock position on the P-238, but DO NOT USE IT!!
You can decock the pistol to this position and put the safety on, but it is not like a 1911.. EVEN with the safety ON, if you pull the trigger, the hammer will drop.. Granted, not very far, and it probably will not go off, but it will drop.. Why the pistol is designed like this, I have no idea..
Cocked, locked and Safety on for my wife..

IN addition, someone said it may be the safest semi-auto out there...
I have a SCCY CPX-1 (Yes it is bigger than the P-238).. It has a safety AND is DAO.. Now that is safe..
It has a fairly long 9# pull and being DAO,it allows a double strike if for some reason a shell does not go off without stroking the slide..

I like the P-238, but at twice the price of a CPX-1 9mm, I like my SCCY..

[Billy Sparks]

The only reason I do not carry mine pocket carry is with the cocked hammer is a snag issue.

[m.ritz]

i own 1 and go hammer ready, safety on & no holster when i pocket it

[olderelder]

Use a holster!