Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought

[jerbear]

Some times during the classroom portion, you see some students that raise a Red Flag. From your story, this was obviously the case. I think I would have stopped all activity after the first time he looked down the barrel of the gun. Escorted this guy off the property. I could not give this guy a pass for the attitude that he displayed. Chances are, he might not have passsed the back round check????

[wnccarry]

BC1, I agree 100% with you did. You were MORE than lenient with him and like the others here I would have ejected him for the class after the first offense. Guns and stupid people do not go together. I have ejected several over my 18 yrs. and have had some issues with TRAINED officers and Accidental Discharges, more like Negligent Discharges.
We are the first line as instructors, if WE let them by or "BUY" a certification, than WE are doing a disservice to the rest, personally something I never want to do is LOWER my bar or my integrity.
So for me, it’s simple, my name on the bottom of each of the certificates is just like my SS Number, if anything ever happens, it’s coming back to you.

[Jody Cussins]

You did nothing wrong and everything right! I had a similar thing happen in a Hunters Education class I was instructing. For some reason I had to teach half of the class by myself on a Saturday. I had one student that had to comment on everything I said or anyone else said. Then during films he wouldn't leave anyone alone and talked during the films. I finally had enough and told him to sit down shut up and listen, not talk and leave everyone alone. He told me I didn't have the right to talk to him that way! That sent me over the edge and I told him to leave and that he could finish the last chapter of the day on his own. He could come back the next day to finish if he could control himself. The next day he showed up and started complaining as soon as the class started. The Conservation Officer that was there helping that day, whom I had told everything that happened, told him either sit and shut up or leave! That I was in charge representing the Game Commission and had every right to control the class. The rest of the class applauded and told the man they came to learn and not listen to an idiot. he was finally ask to leave and not come back. the Game Commission received several letters commending me and the Officer for the way we handled the troublemaker.
I say Bravo to you and the other instructors! Job well done, your main objective is the safety of everyone on the firing line and class!

[StoneFence]

I was in that class! I left (having finished my range exercises) before "Curly" took to the range. Scarey indeed. I think you did what you could.

Good class in the classroom. As someone said before "there's one in every class". That level of stupidity was exceptional.

[improvisation07]

Pretty interesting. The general concensus seems to be warning once and boot twice.

In short, most folks seem perfectly willing to let an individual have a second chance to perhaps kill you or someone else, maybe even himself.

Not I. Preliminary to live fire one is not only "trained" in the operation of one's weapon but is also given a specific detailed account of how they are to conduct themselves on the firing line. ANY violation and you are gone.

I don't "Buy into" the second chance bit. One is only "dead" once..... be damned if I am willing to give someone two chances to make it so. The safety of myself and the other bystanders are MUCH more important than hurting someone's feelings by booting them on the first offense. Sorry, Charlie.... welcome to the real world.

GG

This I agree with 100% ^^

[Scuba1]

Amen Brother. I'm afraid after the safety part of the class and he then looked down the loaded end of the firearm. I think I would have removed him from the firing line. Better to put an end to his arguing with the instructor about everything, warn him once. After that good bye. You don't need someone there when you have good shooters wanting to learn. Firearms are serious as you know. You handled it your way and that was fine too.

[Arc Angel]

........ What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly. In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.

Well, I've trained a lot of young men and women in firearm safety. I started shooting when I was 9 years old. The 4 Marines who taught me were, 'tough as nails' - Especially when it came to young children and loaded firearms. I, myself, was trained to be an instructor by one of the most prominent TC's in Pennsylvania. I can only answer this query by: (1) What I would do; and (2) what those who taught me would have done in similar circumstances.

This said, there is no way that, 'gun jerk' would have survived any of the Marines who trained me - No way! Neither would he have gotten past his second mistake with me; and, quite possibly, he wouldn't have gotten past the, 'looking down the muzzle' incident the FIRST TIME he pulled that stunt. As far as my TC goes? He would have thrown the guy out of the class the very first time he screwed up! (And I'm not just saying that!)

We were warned that our first safety mistake would be our last safety mistake BEFORE we went out onto the range. It was a good warning and good business for the TC to do that. Believe me, nobody in our class of 20 - 25 students even came close to screwing up. 'Why' am I telling you this? It's a favor. I think you screwed up by not establishing the ground rules - right from the start - BEFORE anybody entered the range and got a gun in his hot little hands.

I don't mean to be rude; but I think you guys were much too lenient and much too polite. It's not enough to just catch a student doing something wrong. It's like setting up an ambush: You've got to put yourself in an advanced position to come down hard on any offender; and, the moment a safety violation occurs, there can be absolutely no doubt who is in charge.

Lest anyone think I'm a, 'hard case', no really I'm not. I make allowance for a student to survive the first offense - Which is a whole lot more slack than many of my own instructors ever cut me. (And, perhaps, they were right.) I hope you will take this criticism in the same spirit as it is offered. You sound like a good bunch of guys.

[Ladyrossi]

Wow. My chin is still on my chest. I, too teach handgun classes but unlike you, I am the sole instructor. I have had to deal with some very opinionated students. If the student drug down the class with excessive questions or opinions then you had to do what was best for the whole class. I would have had him cornered by lunch and explained he was not allowing others who also paid to ask questions. Please limit them or... if he would, please write them down and we will discuss them at the next break. However, on the range there may not be second chances. Even having instructors as close as you were he caused a safety hazard. But if I had been standing near him, as a fellow student and you did not take him off the line- I would have stepped off the line and asked to shoot later when it was safe. By all means try to explain to him the reason we don't look into or point the muzzle at anything we don't want to shoot. I agree with former posts. You had every right (and responsibility) to 'fail' him. Giving his money back was too kind but probably ended his whining. As the instructor you have to decide whether or not you want your name on a piece of paper saying he is a safe gun handler. Thanks for the post, many instructors would not have shared this so openly.

[ares338]

Thank You for doing just what you did. You can't train or fix stupid. I wouldn't want to be in a class and have to worry about a yoyo like this being next to or behind me.

[*Paladin*]

I'm a military firearms instructor and have just recently started into the civilian training arena. My policy is one warning. Two strikes and your out. Our military students that are removed from the range have to attend remedial weapon safety training and have a letter from their commander stating the remedial training was conducted and requesting we give the student another training slot.