Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought
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Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought

This is a discussion on Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought within the Instructors Corner forums, part of the Main Category category; This weekend I held the class " NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home." Saturday was eight hours of lecture, bookwork, ...

  1. #1
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    Default Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought

    This weekend I held the class "NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home." Saturday was eight hours of lecture, bookwork, demonstration and dry-fire exercises. I had one student who felt the need to interject his opinion on everything that was said. He was bogging us down and we couldn't keep him quiet. I was the lead instructor and had two other NRA instructors and a SWAT weapons instructor working the class as we like a one-to-one instructor/student ratio during the live fire parts of the class.

    Well today (Sunday) was the advanced live-fire exercises. Sixteen students overall and four at a time on the line (with four instructors). Then this particular student came on the line. Look out! He had much difficulty following instructions. First, we found him looking down the barrel of his loaded .45. He was warned and advised of the safety violations. A few minutes later another instructor caught him looking down the barrel. He was warned again and argued that he was not compromising safety on the firing line. Then the police trainer caught him loading the gun while pointing it directly at him. Lastly, I caught him with the loaded gun turned toward himself wiping some smudges off it. He then looked down the barrel again.

    The police instructor requested he hand over the gun and step off the line. He refused. The LEO warned him to turn over the gun or he would forceably take it and arrest him. He begrudgingly gave it up. I locked the gun in the clubhouse and returned to the range to find him arguing that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Tried to tell me all the other instructors were wrong. These are well trained instructors with intuitive knowledge and extensive experience in personal protection. I believe they acted in the best interest of the club, the other students and our own personal safety (even though we all wear vests during live-fire). I refunded his money and repossessed his NRA certificate of completion. When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).

    In the event he shot himself or another student you can bet we would have been named in any lawsuit. Although we carry $6,000,000 liability insurance between us I believed that allowing him to continue presented significant liability to all involved. Ignorance at it's best. yet he's had a CCW permit for 25 years.I thought the LEO was going to choke him as he wouldn't shut up until threatened with police intervention.

    The best part was that we had another instructor teaching "NRA Basic Pistol" in the clubhouse and this occurred while he was covering handgun safety. Those students got a good look at stupidity in action.

    What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.

    In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  2. #2
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    Default It is what it is

    You did everything you could. Unfortunately while you gave him several chances at being safe around the rest of the people, the gun however is not so forgiving. If you want to know my honest opinion, and if I was instructing, I would've given the expectations of the class, which I am certain you did, and stood by them. It isn't personal, it's VERY PERSONAL. If it wasn't for the responsible weapons owners, we'd not have the privilege and right to have them.

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    He got off easy. ANYONE flagging ANYONE (including themselves) in the class gets an automatic invitation to leave the class. I wouldn't have given him a refund. He used class materials and occupied a seat that another more responsible student could have occupied.

    Makes me wonder if he was a reporter or anti-gun person working undercover.



    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

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    Default I agree.

    You handled it absolutley as professional as humanly possible. I have been an NRA instructor for a while now and certified as an instructor with other organizations and have had to remove a few students over the years.

    Personally, I would have removed him after the first time I caught him looking down a barrel of a loaded firearm. No ifs ands or butts about it. The NRA curriculum you are referring to, the first 8 hours are firearms safety before you go to live fire. If you are looking down the barrel of a .45 after that then you simply don't need to own a firearm, period. I don't want to come off like a hard ass, I understand people make mistakes but what people fail to understand sometimes is this is not a damn game, we are dealing with novice people and loaded firearms if you can't listen to instruction your ass needs to GO and in a hurry.

    I think personally you handled it very professionaly and lived up to the NRA ethics of conduct in every possible way.

    -Brian

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    Makes me wonder if he was a reporter or anti-gun person working undercover.
    I would doubt that but rather one of these cases that demonstrate the difference between stupidity and ignorance. (Ignorance can be cured). The worst part of this if after he leaves the class he is free to continue the stupidity on in the public very possibly having his name in the papers soon as a demonstration of why guns are bad. The sad thing is so many times people like this, just as with DUI, they don't get hurt but someone else pays for their stupidity. The only thing better than what you did would have been if you had been able to take his ability to even have a gun away. I know that is harsh but sometime we have to face the facts that some people should not be allowed to have guns. This is my opinion and count for the same as all other opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    Did we handle him correctly.
    Absolutely...except you waited too long to boot 'em out, IMO.

    Hope you didn't refund his course fee either.


    3X PM

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    I'm with Felix.. He was given too many chances..

    I would have had him lay his weapon on the table after the 1st offense. Walked him away from the firing line and discussed what he did, why it was wrong, and IF he did it again he would be removed from the firing line immediately and would not be returning. (Yes he would have argued), but would known what the consequences were.. On the second offense, Off the line he would have went...

    I think this approach is even generous.. once is enough, but it is a class environment and people do make mistakes (Even stupid mistakes).

    Good on you returning his money, although I don't think you will be getting any referrals from him.. (He didn't deserve it back, but sometimes it's just better to give the $$ back)

    Even better that you took his NRA certificate back!!!

    Gulf Coast, Floriduh
    Sccy is the limit

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    My vote is for too many chances. I think you were too lenient.
    Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman. Amerika: a place where the serfs are afraid of the action the police may take against them for perfectly legal behavior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.
    Other than not removing him after the first offense, I don't see anything wrong with what you did. I, too, have been trained by LEO's and Military instructors. I cannot imagine any of my instructors allowing me to continue with live fire after exhibiting that kind of behavior. In fact, I probably would not have been allowed to come back for the second day. I admire your patience, but I believe that you took on too much liability by allowing him so many chances. However, that being said, you were the one teaching the class and not me, so it is your decision based on your experience at the time that counts and not my opinion.

  10. #10
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    XJ_MAC is offline M.A. Cooper
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    I think he should be reported to his issuing authority for review.

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