What happens if you injure a bystander? - Page 3
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What happens if you injure a bystander?

This is a discussion on What happens if you injure a bystander? within the Instructors Corner forums, part of the Main Category category; In my school we call this the MILLION DOLLAR SHOT....

  1. #21
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    In my school we call this the MILLION DOLLAR SHOT.
    BTTBBOB
    President & Chief Instructor
    www.sflagunschool.com

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    Wow, the amount of mis-information in this thread is shocking. For example, LEO are entitled to qualified immunity unless one can prove he was acting outside the course and scope of his employment when the incident occurred. Thus, if a LEO is shooting to defend himself in a gun battle and hits a bystander I can almost assure you he will be entitled to qualified immunity. Whereas when the cops are beating someone the whole point of that is to prove he is outside the course and scope and thus not immune and subject to civil and criminal liability. These are not protections offered to non-government employees. Same can be said when a LEO kills someone in his cruiser.

    I'm not gonna bother correcting the rest. But if you want insurance coverage for your own negligence investigate an umbrella policy. It may be of some use.
    Disclaimer: In no way should any post be deemed legal advice and no such legal advice is being given. All posts are for entertainment purposes only and should not be construed as rendering legal advice as no such attorney client relationship is created herein.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    I just read about the Philadelphia settlement for an unintended shooting of a bystander by police. City to pay $1.8 million in fatal shooting of bystander by a police officer. It reminded me of a similar case in Buffalo, NY where a woman was struck and killed by a police office while she was watching a gun battle from her apartment.

    So what's the law in your state if a licensed firearm owner uses their weapon justifiably but a bystander is injured or killed?
    There's a little lawyer sitting on every round you fire and you can be damned sure that the lawyer will hunt you down if you shoot someone "unintentionally". You may or may not get charged criminally, but you can bet your bippy that there will be a civil suit, like it sounds there was in this Philly case.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleeyes View Post
    wait what? what kind of insurance does one need if accidently shoot an innocent bystander?
    An umbrella policy gives you liability insurance for a myriad of things that people can sue you for.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff@3gundynamics.com View Post
    Huh? Is this one of those "I'm going to load birdshot for the first shot, followed by 00 buck for the next 2 shots, then birdshot again, then a slug to finish them off" things?

    K.I.S.S. Find an ammo that works for you and go with it. Be able to clearly explain why you picked that ammo in case you need to tell it to a jury. And yes, like the previous posts, try and hit what you aim at.
    2-1 drill. Put two in center of mass.... if they are wearing armor, put one in the ocular cavity. Practice it practice it practice it
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo57:322921
    Wow, the amount of mis-information in this thread is shocking. For example, LEO are entitled to qualified immunity unless one can prove he was acting outside the course and scope of his employment when the incident occurred. Thus, if a LEO is shooting to defend himself in a gun battle and hits a bystander I can almost assure you he will be entitled to qualified immunity. Whereas when the cops are beating someone the whole point of that is to prove he is outside the course and scope and thus not immune and subject to civil and criminal liability. These are not protections offered to non-government employees. Same can be said when a LEO kills someone in his cruiser.

    I'm not gonna bother correcting the rest. But if you want insurance coverage for your own negligence investigate an umbrella policy. It may be of some use.
    Are you saying if a police officer is justified in shooting a perp and hits a bystander, then o well, qualified immunity. But if a civilian is justified in shooting in self defense, and hits a bystander, then they are responsible because they do not receive qualified immunity? Can you explain why that is?
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Shoobee is offline Banned
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    There are many occasions when LEOs cannot take a shot, due to crowds. They are trained to know the difference.

    If a civilian therefore takes a shot in a condition like that, you can bet there will at least be a civil suit if not also a negligence homicide/endangerment prosecution.

    Make sure you get training for that CCW before you start blasting away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramboo316 View Post
    Actually its better to load your mag safely, have hollow points loaded first followed by pre frag ammo that way if you don't take them down with the prefrag the Hollow points are there to insure you survive the encounter
    What you call "prefrag" are junk ammunition, and what makes you think than when they fail (provided you even hit your antagonist) that you'll be alive long enough to get to the HP's in your mag?


    ........... as to the rest of this discussion the majority of people here are what lawyers call judgement proof, as in not having deep enough pockets that the suing attorney can ever reasonably collect a judgement against. Lawyers don't invest in civil cases they don't see a good chance of profiting from. Further few people have the financial resources to pay an attorney out of pocket to acquire a judgement they won't be able to collect upon.

    Depending on your state's laws and political climate your primary concern would more likely be concerning criminal prosecution for negligence.


    Hand cut, Hand stitched, Hand made

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    In police and even some civilian shootings the law suit that is filed can be professionally (you as a police officer) and personally (against you as a person).

    The insurance you carry aids in the acquisition of expert witnesses. One that occurred in this area in the past several years involved a shooting in an area that changed from near a street light to a darker area with the good guy seeing a flash of a silver color in front of the suspect.

    The flash of silver turned out not to be a pistol, the expert witness testified about the perception of the good guy when he saw the flash of silver color. The expert witness is someone that the defense attorney needs. It sure would help in a personal suit to have some insurance to cover his fee for testifying.

    I encourage all of my students civilian and law enforcement to carry insurance over and above what they think they might need. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

    There is never a never and never an always. Do what you can to protect yourself physically, emotionally and financially.

    I am not a lawyer but a law enforcement officer of 50 years.

    I wish you the best in these changing times.
    Pat Olvey, Cincinnati, Ohio
    Hamilton County
    email swohioccw218@yahoo.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoobee View Post
    There are many occasions when LEOs cannot take a shot, due to crowds. They are trained to know the difference.

    It would seem they have the training, but comparatively law enforcement shoot bystanders far more than civilians.

    If a civilian therefore takes a shot in a condition like that, you can bet there will at least be a civil suit if not also a negligence homicide/endangerment prosecution.

    and if a Leo takes a shot in that scenario, why should they receive qualified immunity?
    If SD situation A is exactly the same as SD situation B except one is a police officer, and the other a civilian, why should there be a difference?
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

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