Good point. You might very well be correct in Pennsylvania, because Pennsylvania statutes says this:Originally Posted by mrjam2jab
I think this may be the first time I have to disagree with you....
Presence of a gun is not automatically suspicion of a crime...asking for a LTCF while carrying is akin to asking for a drivers license just because you are seen operating a motor vehicle.
The words highlighted above would tend to cause me to agree with you. This is different than Washington state law which is:§ 6122. Proof of license and exception.
(a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or
about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to
carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement
officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce
such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary
hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.
RCW 9.41.050: Carrying firearms.
In Washington the requirement is only upon demand. In Pennsylvania the requirement is upon lawful demand. Two different requirements because of that single added word. Pennsylvania statute would indicate that the officer would have to have a reason to ask for it, whereas Washington statute indicates that the officer needs no reason.(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.
And, like you said, the mere concealing of the firearm gives the officer NO reasonable suspicion to indicate the person is not licensed to do so.
I am not anti-cop, I am pro-Constitution.
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I would have to agree.I think this may be the first time I have to disagree with you....
Presence of a gun is not automatically suspicion of a crime...asking for a LTCF while carrying is akin to asking for a drivers license just because you are seen operating a motor vehicle.
"It's easier to avoid conflict than it is to survive it" - SGB
This is a good comparision and got me to thinking. What if a LEO saw someone smoking who looked underage. Would it be OK if he asked the person how old they are? The same for driving or carrying a gun, would appearance of age justify asking and how old do they have to look? I know of one strore that caught so much grief about carding young looking people for buying cigarettes that they now make everyone show id even if you are 60 and look 70. LEO used to be able to use a lot of judgement on asking about drivers license if you looked young or anything else like that but so many complaints about discrimination have come up until we are going to reach the place where either everyone gets stopped for everything or noone gets stopped for anything.Presence of a gun is not automatically suspicion of a crime...asking for a LTCF while carrying is akin to asking for a drivers license just because you are seen operating a motor vehicle.
We will soon reach the point that if a LEO sees you printing or catches a glimpse he will have no choice but to ask for a permit if one is required. I know that we all say that we should be able to carry but this same thought is going to carry over to many other things and we are not going to be happy about that.
Banned
Not to split hairs, but in SC you have to inform the officer if you have a Concealed Carry Permit, even if you are not carrying. You do not actually have to inform the officer if you are carrying.
mmmm....that's not how I read it...
SECTION 23-31-215. Issuance of permits
(K) A permit holder must have his permit identification card in his possession whenever he carries a concealable weapon. When carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23, a permit holder must inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that he is a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer (1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and (2) requests identification or a driver’s license from a permit holder. A permit holder immediately must report the loss or theft of a permit identification card to SLED headquarters. A person who violates the provisions of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined twenty five dollars.
The first I have heard of that. My interpretation is that you do not have to inform if the gun is in your console since you are not carrying under the provisions of your permit but as an ordinary citizen. You are correct that you only have to present you permit and not the gun but the assumption is that if you notify one of your permit then you are also carrying, otherwise you do not have to notify him of your permit.
Correction: If a LEO in Mn asks you if you're carrying, you have to tell. It is good etiquette to offer the info if the LEO only asks for identification, but not required.
As mentioned by another, Mn is a Permit to Carry state which allows for CC or OC.
"Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)
Tool Maker
Could someone give the run down surrounding this question for legal residents of Indiana being approached by a LEO in Indiana? I've looked for this info from time to time and have yet to find anything remotely definitive.
When they "Nudge. Shove. Shoot.",
Don't retreat. Just reload.
IN is not a Must Inform state. Can't find it in the statute because it isn't there. :-)
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