Horseplaying LEO

[Providence Ranch]

This comes back to being a good witness. Calling 911 should have been your first move, then taken it from there should the need arise. What would you have done? Flown into the parking lot and jumped out of the car straight into the weaver stance and ordered the guy to stop?

911 would have been able to send help if it was needed, If it was needed you may have been able to render aid till backup arrived.

Always be 100% sure of whats going on before you react!

I agree on one thing: calling 911 would have been the perfect response. The officer would had been at least horribly embarrass by having a half dozen of his LEO buddies respond to a friendly wrestling match! And at worst, he would have been written a letter of reprimand for conduct unbecoming of a peace officer.

I disagree with your last statement. You will.never...NEVER...be 100% certain of what's going on before you act, in ANY situation. There is always some degree of uncertainty. We are dealing with humanity here. If you force yourself to this standard you will hesitate in the moment of truth...

"You will become DEAD Marines! And a dead Marine is in a world of $h!t. Because Marines are not allowed to die without permission!"

Sorry, FMJ moment.

All I am saying is that of course we must make every reasonable effort to understand a situation before we react to it. But when we are only afforded seconds to react, 100% certainty is a hell of a stretch.

[S&WM&P40]

I agree on one thing: calling 911 would have been the perfect response. The officer would had been at least horribly embarrass by having a half dozen of his LEO buddies respond to a friendly wrestling match! And at worst, he would have been written a letter of reprimand for conduct unbecoming of a peace officer.

I disagree with your last statement. You will.never...NEVER...be 100% certain of what's going on before you act, in ANY situation. There is always some degree of uncertainty. We are dealing with humanity here. If you force yourself to this standard you will hesitate in the moment of truth...

"You will become DEAD Marines! And a dead Marine is in a world of $h!t. Because Marines are not allowed to die without permission!"

Sorry, FMJ moment.

All I am saying is that of course we must make every reasonable effort to understand a situation before we react to it. But when we are only afforded seconds to react, 100% certainty is a hell of a stretch.

While that is a fine way of thinking and acting when you have police unions and armies of prepaid lawyers to defend you. Citizen X can not afford to be in a long drawn out court ordeal or worse prison.

If you act without knowing as much information as you can, who is going to support your family while your in jail? How many times do the so called "professionals"(police) go on TV and tell the public to be a good witness. "We have the training and the tools to deal with it, call us first." They can't have it both-ways, can't tell me to sit by and call them when help is needed for someone. Then ***** about it and say I should have acted, the term "I was only following orders" comes to mind.

[Providence Ranch]

While that is a fine way of thinking and acting when you have police unions and armies of prepaid lawyers to defend you. Citizen X can not afford to be in a long drawn out court ordeal or worse prison.

If you act without knowing as much information as you can, who is going to support your family while your in jail?

Open your mind, guy. You are totally missing the point. YES, you should make EVERY effort to understand a situation before becoming involved. But you will seldom IF EVER have anywhere near a complete understanding of a situation before you are forced to be involved. The best you can hope for is to avoid a confrontation. But there will be times when we cannot, LEO or not. This is why we carry, after all! In this case you WILL have to act, or you (or someone else) WILL die. And you WILL NOT have 100% of the facts.

But that's ok, as long as you have enough to convince a jury (yes, a jury) that BASED UPON WHAT FACTS WERE AVAILABLE TO YOU AT THE TIME, your actions were reasonable and necessary to protect the innocent from an immediate threat of serious bodily injury or death.

If you carry, you must do so knowing fully that your life will change forever FOR THE WORSE if you have to shoot someone. You will face criminal and civil liability. You may lose your job, whether you were right or wrong. Your marriage may fall apart, whether you were right or wrong. You might lose everything you own and have to relocate and start a new life somewhere else. You may lose your guns, you may go to jail. Get used to the idea, and plan for it. If you "cannot afford to be in a long drawn out court ordeal or worse prison," then your weapon is just an ornament you never plan to use anyway, and you might as well put that bling back in your jewelry box and start carrying pepper spray instead.

[S&WM&P40]

Open your mind, guy. You are totally missing the point. YES, you should make EVERY effort to understand a situation before becoming involved. But you will seldom IF EVER have anywhere near a complete understanding of a situation before you are forced to be involved. The best you can hope for is to avoid a confrontation. But there will be times when we cannot, LEO or not. This is why we carry, after all! In this case you WILL have to act, or you (or someone else) WILL die. And you WILL NOT have 100% of the facts.

But that's ok, as long as you have enough to convince a jury (yes, a jury) that BASED UPON WHAT FACTS WERE AVAILABLE TO YOU AT THE TIME, your actions were reasonable and necessary to protect the innocent from an immediate threat of serious bodily injury or death.

If you carry, you must do so knowing fully that your life will change forever FOR THE WORSE if you have to shoot someone. You will face criminal and civil liability. You may lose your job, whether you were right or wrong. Your marriage may fall apart, whether you were right or wrong. You might lose everything you own and have to relocate and start a new life somewhere else. You may lose your guns, you may go to jail. Get used to the idea, and plan for it. If you "cannot afford to be in a long drawn out court ordeal or worse prison," then your weapon is just an ornament you never plan to use anyway, and you might as well put that bling back in your jewelry box and start carrying pepper spray instead.

"Forced to be involved" The only time I would ever be force to be involved would be if I was the target, in such a case I would know with 100% of the persons intentions.

You talk of innocents being killed?? I did not choose to carry a firearm in my daily life to play rent a cop to those who wish to be meat for the wolfs.

If you want to play Superman or (Can't say it with a straight face) "Sheepdog" by all means go for it!

I carry for the protection of myself and my loved ones nothing more and nothing less! Someone stands to do them harm I will not hesitate to employ deadly force. That being said I (as many others do) carry a less lethal weapon as well(Taser,baton,mace.) If I can employ one of those and break contact long enough to get them to safety thus avoiding deadly force I will.

I have no illusions that what I carry everyday is a deadly weapon and should I ever need to use it, someones loved one will come home. For that very reason I'm not jumping at the chance to use it, but I will not hesitate to use it should the need arise.

[Undertow]

[QUOTE=S&WM&P40;235083]What would you have done? Flown into the parking lot and jumped out of the car straight into the weaver stance and ordered the guy to stop?
QUOTE]

I would have approached and asked the officer if he needed assistance. If he said yes, I would provide whatever assistance seemed appropriate. Anything from calling 911, to helping the officer subdue and handcuff the man, or all the way to the use of deadly force if needed.

I certainly wouldn't rush head on into a situation involving the police without a solid assesment of what was happening, but being a good witness while a criminal kills a police officer is not something that I could do either.

[S&WM&P40]

[QUOTE=Undertow;235225]

What would you have done? Flown into the parking lot and jumped out of the car straight into the weaver stance and ordered the guy to stop?
QUOTE]

I would have approached and asked the officer if he needed assistance. If he said yes, I would provide whatever assistance seemed appropriate. Anything from calling 911, to helping the officer subdue and handcuff the man, or all the way to the use of deadly force if needed.

I certainly wouldn't rush head on into a situation involving the police without a solid assesment of what was happening, but being a good witness while a criminal kills a police officer is not something that I could do either.

But being a good witness while the police kill citizens is right to you?

[Undertow]

But being a good witness while the police kill citizens is right to you?

What are you smoking? In no way did I suggest that.

[S&WM&P40]

What are you smoking? In no way did I suggest that.

You implied it. All this talk of rushing to the aid of an officer, yet those very same people would stand by and watch as an officer attacked/killed a citizen. Why the double standard? Why is being a good witness good enough for your fellow citizens, yet you would rush to the aid of an officer?

Who really needs help, the police or the citizens? One needs to only step outside to see the truth.

Did you ever stop to think about the other side of the issue? What if, it was in fact the officer who was attacking the citizen, did you ever stop to think about that? Would you also ask the citizen if they needed help or needed you to call 911? It's not always the officer who is in the right, your view point seems very one-sided.

[Undertow]

You implied it. All this talk of rushing to the aid of an officer, yet those vary same people would stand by and watch as an officer attacked/killed a citizen. Why the double standard? Why is being a good witness good enough for your follow citizens, yet you would rush to the ad of an officer?

Who really needs help the police or the citizens? One needs to only step outside to see the truth.

Did you ever stop to think about the other side of the issue? What if it was in fact the officer who was attacking the citizen, did you ever stop to think about that? Would you also ask the citizen if they needed help or needed you to call 911? It's not always the officer who is in the right, your view point seems vary one sided.

I think your spelling and grammar negate any argument that you bring to the table.

[S&WM&P40]

I think your spelling and grammar negate any argument that you bring to the table.

Ah and a forum Nazi to boot, your just the whole package. How much is the ticket spelling police?

Love dealing with narrow minded people who hold the police up on a silver platter. As you have shown you only care about one side of the story. You will render aid to the oppressors but not to the true victims.

I love how in your mind it's acceptable to stand by and watch when it's a citizen in need. But the second a police officer needs help, simply watching is not enough anymore and you feel compelled to act.

Why do you feel the citizens of this great country are second class compared to a police officer?