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Horseplaying LEO

This is a discussion on Horseplaying LEO within the LEO Encounters forums, part of the Main Category category; It sounds like his injuries were his own fault. If so. I hope the department suspends him without pay and ...

  1. #31
    shanmarsh2 is offline Banned
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    It sounds like his injuries were his own fault. If so. I hope the department suspends him without pay and benefits until he's able to perform the duties he's paid for. No reason for the taxpayers to pay for his reckless disregard.

  2. #32
    MIL-SPEC 45 is offline Banned
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    You're a wannabe hero with a 380 LMAO!!!!

  3. #33
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    Undertow, I don't think you were overreacting. Unlike a lot of situations in life, you saw this developing from the very beginning and had no reason to believe it to be anything else other than a car stop gone completely sideways.

    I would have done the same as you, calling 911 as I spun around. Since the giant wasn't armed I probably would've stopped far enough back to issue a verbal warning, but my hand would've been on the butt of my gun. A word from the officer is enough to de-escalate all of this, so as long as he steps up it's all good.

    Since Undertow had watched the car stop from the beginning, he had all of the evidence a "reasonable man" should need before acting. The fact that the officer and the man being stopped were friends are pieces of information that no one could be expected to know and that the officer, in his professional capacity, should not have played upon.

    However, there is another factor active in the forum that was not at that scene with Undertow. There is more than one type of person when it comes to seeing a wrong being committed against another; there are those that can turn their back and walk away, there are others that are paralyzed with inaction or simply are unsure of what to do until it is over, and there are others that feel they must react to stop the injustice from happening. This is not something to be judged as "right" or "wrong," or to be told, "If you want to fight crime, get a badge and do it right." It is simply a difference in people. No, none of us are ever "forced to be involved," but some of us have principles and internal processes that don't allow us to live with ourselves if we see wrongdoing and don't attempt to somehow stop it. That doesn't necessarily mean going in guns blazing all the time, but it definitely means making my presence known, calling 911, letting the BG know his plans are now all screwed up and leaving might be his best option. It's not about being a "Hero" but about doing the right thing. Maybe it has to do with being raised with parents that never believed in "gray areas" and everything was black-and-white, right-or-wrong, but I simply could not watch what Undertow did, even if I called 911 and just drive on - it would plague me for weeks what had happened to the officer because I did not stay and help.

    S&WMP40, Undertow saw the stop from the beginning and saw the giant attack the officer. It's a generally accepted fact that a person that will attack law enforcement is a bigger danger to the general public because he has escalated to the point that he has no regard for societal norms. Of course it is possible that the LEO is abusive, but the only way to solve that problem is administratively after-the-fact. It would not be a good idea to involve yourself in a fight to defend the giant as that would just wind you both up in jail and any third party could wind up losing their carry permit or possible charges added to their criminal record.

    Providence Ranch, Congrats on the Less Civility award! I am sooo jealous! Can we get a picture of the CCW badge as soon as you get it?? :D
    Edmund Burke: “The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.” – 1784 speech. Taken from Founding Fathers Notes. "The unarmed man is not just defenseless -- he is also contemptible." Machiavelli

  4. #34
    shanmarsh2 is offline Banned
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    The encounter the OP saw can develop like that. I probably would have turned to check on the LEO myself. The very most important point is knowing when/if to get involved.

  5. #35
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    I just wanted to add that as a police officer, I thought this was unacceptable for this police officer to be horse-playing around in public, and would agree that if he got hurt it's unacceptable as a tax-payer.

    I would have called 911 and informed the dispatchers of my location and an officer needed help. The question would have been brought up, "Why would someone call in then?" Then it would have trigger an investigation, and review. In Oregon, I know our police governmental regulatory arm takes this stuff seriously - especially if the officer lied about why someone would have called. I know of a few cases similar to yours where there have been revoking of police certifications for horseplay.

    Unless I'm screaming for help, which I know a few officers who have, unconscious or obviously helpless - I don't recommend getting involved for situations like the original poster made besides a phone call at a distance. The reason is simple, you don't know what's going on nor are you absolved of liability because you're not working within your job description (Bivens v. Six Unnamed Agents). If I summon you, under my state law, you're covered. I want the people to be protected from undue physically, criminally, and civil liability.

    Someone tried to step in when I was trying to take someone into custody and I didn't know who they were or what their intentions were. Long story short, they got their feelings hurt, apparently yelling "Get back!" is enough to upset someone, but I explained my reasoning and they were understanding after a couple of minutes.

    That is my personal take on it.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TekGreg View Post
    Providence Ranch, Congrats on the Less Civility award! I am sooo jealous! Can we get a picture of the CCW badge as soon as you get it?? :D
    Don't need a CCW badge, I have a real one. And no, I won't post a picture. But I WILL post a picture of my "least civil response" trophy, if and when I actually receive it. :-)

  7. #37
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    I would probably act as you did and then make a report .
    An honest mans pillow is his peace of mind.

  8. #38
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    Samuel, or other LEO, I used to live in a very sparsely populated county. Very few deputies patrolled it, and it was common for an able-bodied, law-abiding citizen to stop a couple of car lengths behind his unit or across the street and ask, "Everything okay, Deputy?" to which there would normally be a wave of the hand and the civilian would drive on. There were a few instances where the deputy enlisted a civilian to watch someone or do a simple Extra Man task. The deputies said they appreciated the fact that there were others watching out for their safety and a couple had their lives saved by citizens being helpful.

    So what is the proper procedure if a law-abiding citizen believes an LEO in danger? Obviously a call to 911 is in order, but what's the best way to ask the officer? From how far away? There must be a safe way to do this without angering LEOs on a regular basis. And obviously, this is not to "play cop," but just to ensure officer safety when it looks like he could be in trouble.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TekGreg View Post
    Samuel, or other LEO, I used to live in a very sparsely populated county. Very few deputies patrolled it, and it was common for an able-bodied, law-abiding citizen to stop a couple of car lengths behind his unit or across the street and ask, "Everything okay, Deputy?" to which there would normally be a wave of the hand and the civilian would drive on. There were a few instances where the deputy enlisted a civilian to watch someone or do a simple Extra Man task. The deputies said they appreciated the fact that there were others watching out for their safety and a couple had their lives saved by citizens being helpful.
    Although I work in a city, on a rare occasion backup can be twenty minutes out. I've never asked a citizen to help me and I hope I never do. That's comes with several inherent safety and liability issues. The citizens don't have the same training, or equipment as I do. I'm glad that citizens have stepped up and helped out, and the situation ended at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekGreg View Post
    So what is the proper procedure if a law-abiding citizen believes an LEO in danger? Obviously a call to 911 is in order, but what's the best way to ask the officer? From how far away? There must be a safe way to do this without angering LEOs on a regular basis. And obviously, this is not to "play cop," but just to ensure officer safety when it looks like he could be in trouble.
    It depends entirely on the situation. Is it dark, light, on a street, dead end road, lights and sirens on, how many suspects, how big are the suspects, how big is the officer, is the officer on their back, are their weapons involved, so on and so forth. Remember the situation is constantly changing, and you may not have the whole picture.

    First is to call the dispatch center and let them know your location and situation. The dispatch center may instruct you to stay away - and if this is the case you need to do it. You may not know the entire situation. For instance, a second suspect could have ran away with a gun and when the backup arrives they may see you and assume you're a suspect. Not only that, they will radio the officer and ask. If the officer is okay, the officer will let dispatch know, and the dispatch operator will let you know. In that case, then you need to described what happen and ask for a supervisor to respond. If you're going to help the officer, let the dispatch operator know and to tell the officer you're helping.

    The last thing you need to do is approach an officer in my opinion, especially if he is interviewing a suspect. I don't want to be distracted from my suspect who may see it as an opportunity to hurt me or flee. In fact, you could get in trouble for it.

    If the officer is struggling with a suspect and you must approach, approach where the officer can see you approaching and yell, "OFFICER - YOU NEED HELP?!" Distance is your friend. Even if you ask, the officer may not be able to respond due to their expelled energy and adrenalin. If you have a gun the suspect may wrestle you for it, and since you may only have a level one retention holster it may fall out in the struggle, also have you ever practiced firearm retention and if so how much? Not only that, but what if the officer sees your gun?

    Just be warned, if you do approach an officer that may think needs your help you could get hit with a baton, shot with a Taser, sprayed with OC, punched, kicked, or possibly shot. We don't know if you're related to the suspect.

    I'm not trying to discourage you from doing the right thing, but you need to realize it's an elastic situation that requires you evaluate the whole situation and assume any liability that may arise from you helping the officer.

    These are some things to think over and play, "What if?" games in your head. Not only that, but you may want to do some training that incorporates this scenario - for instance, firearm retention.

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