7.62X39 Vs. .223

[Caribou]

Can anyone compare the damage done by these two rounds? Range? Can you improve them with hand loads?

[roguesam]

Hmmmm....anyone have anything to say on this subject?

[Jmac926]

I dont know much on the hand loading portion but I do know that the ballistics of the 7.62 x 39 are similar to that of a 30-30 win. The 223 about 2500 fps light projectile all depends on what your trying to do with them too also range from an m4 style carbine for point targets is going to be around 500 meters but your energy will be significantly decreased that far out

[tuts40]

I'm no expert but either would serve their purpose IMHO.

[rrman12280]

I'm no expert on either, but I tend to favor the 7.62 for the larger round and cost of ammo. The 223 is good in it's own right.

[-06]

It is like comparing apples to oranges--the 223 is a light fast round normally about 55 grains. It was originally a varmit round until the military adopted the M-16 and made it popular. The 39 of AK/SKS heritage is a slower heavier round. The 7.62/30 cal is a much slower round and IMO much better for close in shooting. It is not affected by leaves/twigs/walls as the super fast 223.

[thoricuncle]

The problem with the 7.62 x 39 FMJ is that it tends to go straight through the target. It doesn't fragment or tumble very easily. The 5.56 fragments very easily and causes more damage when it impacts.

In the 1970's, the Soviets saw this as a problem and created the AK-74 which is a 5.45 cartridge. In Afghanistan, it was referred to as a "Poison Bullet" due to the damage it inflicted.

Remember though, this is with Full Metal Jacket ammunition which is required for military use. Us civilians have the advantage of using Soft Point and Hollow Point bullets. The 7.62 x 39 in Hollow Point is a devastating round and is my choice. If you want to use the 7.62 x 39 as a hunting round, many states require the use of soft point or hollow point ammunition.

Interestingly, the US seems to be swinging back to the 30 caliber (7.62) round with the advent of the 300 Blackout and Whisper. These rounds will work in an AR-15 by simply swapping out the barrel. They even use the same magazine. The 300 Blackout is very similar to the 7.62 x 39 round. The 300 Whisper is a sub-sonic version that is used for sound suppressed rifles.

[gunnerbob]

The problem with the 7.62 x 39 FMJ is that it tends to go straight through the target. It doesn't fragment or tumble very easily. The 5.56 fragments very easily and causes more damage when it impacts.

In the 1970's, the Soviets saw this as a problem and created the AK-74 which is a 5.45 cartridge. In Afghanistan, it was referred to as a "Poison Bullet" due to the damage it inflicted.

Remember though, this is with Full Metal Jacket ammunition which is required for military use. Us civilians have the advantage of using Soft Point and Hollow Point bullets. The 7.62 x 39 in Hollow Point is a devastating round and is my choice. If you want to use the 7.62 x 39 as a hunting round, many states require the use of soft point or hollow point ammunition.

Interestingly, the US seems to be swinging back to the 30 caliber (7.62) round with the advent of the 300 Blackout and Whisper. These rounds will work in an AR-15 by simply swapping out the barrel. They even use the same magazine. The 300 Blackout is very similar to the 7.62 x 39 round. The 300 Whisper is a sub-sonic version that is used for sound suppressed rifles.

Just to add, the 5.56x45/.223 Rem round depends on high velocity to fragment. This is why the original AR15/M16 was equiped with a 20" barrel, to get the most velocity for the most fragmentation. The U.S. military soon found that using the shorter 14.5-16" barrels decreased the fragmentation effects of the original 55gr M193 round, and developed the heavier M855 round which is 62gr to aid fragmentation. The heavier round requires less velocity to fragment reliably. An even heavier round was developed in 77gr for shorter barreled carbines for the same purpose.

If the light 55gr, 62gr rounds aren't impacting it's target at a high enough velocity they will not fragment reliably... thus passing right through the intended target. This is the problem the U.S. military found in Afghanistan, where average engagements happen beyond the 55/62gr rounds velocity barrier for fragmentation. This has led to the redeployment of the EBR, M14 variants using the 7.62x51... as well as updating the M4 variants with the 6.5/6.8SPC rounds. Generally, the heavier the bullet the less velocity it needs to deform or fragment inside soft tissue... generally.

Again, the 5.56x45/.223 Rem is an outstanding round, as is the 7.62x39! but they each have their intended purposes and limitations. Niether one is perfect for every situation. Even hunting game. I've used a Mini-14 to whitetail hunt in NC before, using ballistic tip 50gr rounds. I shot a doe at 15 yards(came out under stand at daybreak) in the left, upper shoulder. The deer ran for about 40 yards before dropping. Upon examination, the bullet had completely exploded!!! The whole left shoulder was in peices, the left lung was mush, and everything in between was hamburger!

With modern Sp and HP rounds, both calibers' effectivness in soft tissue is increased dramatically! Although, I would cuation to use a heavier round for game larger than whitetail... such as a .30 variant. Be it 7.62x39, .308, .30-06, etc. But this depends on too many factors to mention here.

Generally range of these two rounds is this:

55gr 5.56x45 FMJ from a 20" barrel is good out to 500m in soft tissue, unprotected by IBA or heavy clothing.

123gr 7.62x39 FMJ from a 16-18" barrel is good out to 300m in soft tissue, unprotected by IBA or heavy clothing.

I advise going to AR15.com for more info on the 5.56x45/.223 Rem round. They also offer some good info on the 7.62x39 there.

I own both, I also own the 5.45x39 as well. I prefer the 7.62x39(AK47) for defense use under 200m, the 5.45x39(AK74) and 5.56x45(M16) for use beyond that... generally.

Hope my blathering on helped.

[B2Tall]

The problem with the 7.62 x 39 FMJ is that it tends to go straight through the target. It doesn't fragment or tumble very easily. The 5.56 fragments very easily and causes more damage when it impacts.

Bingo. The 5.56 was our way of getting around the Geneva Convention's ban on expanding bullets....in other words if we can't use an expanding bullet, let's use a tumbling one. More often than not the 5.56 FMJ is going to do more damage than it's x39 counterpart.

The x39 is better at punching through things like masonry walls and is also better in jungle/wooded enviornments where the bullet may strike small branches and the like (the 5.56 has a tendency to fly off course in that situation due to it's designed instability in flight).

Think of the 7.62x39 as a hammer and the 5.56 as a scalpel.

[Caribou]

Thanks! Sounds like with soft or hollow point ammo my 7.62X39 will work well enough for defense or caribou. OMG! No! No! I take that back. Don't shoot Caribou. :)