CCW on University Property

sirsig1780 · #1 03-03-2008, 01:28 PM

Hello guys. I'm looking for some ammo so to speak. I attend UMASS and I have a CCW for Massachusetts but it is illegal to carry on a state campus unless given permission by the state police or the head of the school. I sent them an email to ask for permission to carry and the head of security has requested a meeting with me and the vice chancellor to discuss the issue. I am looking for some points to bring with me to the meeting to help state my claim for permission to carry on campus if that will ever be possible. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

HK4U · #2 03-03-2008, 01:31 PM

They will most likely take you away to a re-education camp some where. All joking aside I hope you get some good news. Keep us posted.

PascalFleischman · #3 03-03-2008, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirsig1780

Hello guys. I'm looking for some ammo so to speak. I attend UMASS and I have a CCW for Massachusetts but it is illegal to carry on a state campus unless given permission by the state police or the head of the school. I sent them an email to ask for permission to carry and the head of security has requested a meeting with me and the vice chancellor to discuss the issue. I am looking for some points to bring with me to the meeting to help state my claim for permission to carry on campus if that will ever be possible. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

1) ALL school shootings have happened where guns were banned. Gun bans did nothing to prevent shooters from attacking the school

2) In each instance, police were present in force, yet did nothing to prevent over 30 murders

3) Utah public universities allow CCW, yet there hasn't been a single instance where someone was shot

4) Highlight the extensive background check you've gone through to carry

5) Remind them that the Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no duty to protect you. You'd like to exercise your inherent right to self defense by exercising your 2nd Amendment right to do it with a gun.

6) Emphasize that you don't drink or do drugs. If you do, it's your duty to secure your gun before imbibing.

I'm sure there's more, but it's time for me to get some lunch. Good luck!

Danno · #4 03-03-2008, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PascalFleischman

1) ALL school shootings have happened where guns were banned. Gun bans did nothing to prevent shooters from attacking the school

2) In each instance, police were present in force, yet did nothing to prevent over 30 murders

3) Utah public universities allow CCW, yet there hasn't been a single instance where someone was shot

4) Highlight the extensive background check you've gone through to carry

5) Remind them that the Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no duty to protect you. You'd like to exercise your inherent right to self defense by exercising your 2nd Amendment right to do it with a gun.

6) Emphasize that you don't drink or do drugs. If you do, it's your duty to secure your gun before imbibing.

I'm sure there's more, but it's time for me to get some lunch. Good luck!

Great "ammo" This is good for anyone!

Jerry · #5 03-04-2008, 02:02 AM

Check out this site... I promise you'll find it right up your alley. http://www.concealedcampus.org/ It is the Students for Conealed Carry on Campus website, and if your on Facebook you ought to search for the group in the goup index there.

I would look around on the website, not only is there plenty of information you could use that is college oriented, but there may already be some members from your school. Let them know your not the only one.

NRA_instructor · #6 03-04-2008, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirsig1780

Hello guys. I'm looking for some ammo so to speak. I attend UMASS and I have a CCW for Massachusetts but it is illegal to carry on a state campus unless given permission by the state police or the head of the school. I sent them an email to ask for permission to carry and the head of security has requested a meeting with me and the vice chancellor to discuss the issue. I am looking for some points to bring with me to the meeting to help state my claim for permission to carry on campus if that will ever be possible. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hi I will try to help you but you are fighting a losing battle. With all the issue's that have come up on campus's nation wide the issue of concealed carry on STATE UNIVERSITY'S has been on the fore front and alot of people have been making the point that if there where provision's allowing CCW on campus's then there would be fewer attacks on persons walking late at night and the best argument lately has been that if that guy that shoot up the campus a while back had even one person confront him that did have a CCW permit then the killing spree woulf have ended much sooner then it did. Typically the rebuttle is that most CCW permit holders are not trained to protect themselves or other in high stress situations(combat envirnment) where the loss of fine motor skills is lost, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion just to mention a few. The fact is that nearly 60% of police that are shot are shot with there own guns and they have recieved a minimum of 40+/- hours of weapons retetion training, having been a patrol deputy I know what it is like to have to fight for your life to keep your weapon in your holster if someone "goes" for your gun. Even with all the safe gaurds built into a duty holster it is still a lot of work to keep it in there when you have someone punching you in the face! With-out the acadamy training and Marine corp training I would most likely be dead. The average CCW permittee has had ZERO WEAPONS RETENTION TRAINING and in some case's they cant even hit what they are shooting at!! The other issue is that State University's are STATE PROPERTY just ast the capitol or any other state office. The fact that a CCW permit DOES NOT allow ANYONE to carry in such building's is the biggest thing they have on there side (be very glad that they have not charged you with a felony weapons charge for doing so) so the major issue lies with the state laws as to the limitations of CCW permittee's can carry where. That his why I say it is a uphill battle, before any "policy change" could take place first the state laws would have to be changed because the Chief of campus police(Local PD has no juristiction just like the capitol building but the campus police will sometimes ask for assistance) could have a outer body experience and say yes but the state laws would over-ride any policy in place at the universirty level. Now dont get me wrong I am a LIFE member of the NRA and a certified in structor of all but one course the NRA offers, I have NRA Instructor rockers(indicates each cousre a instructor is certified to teach) going down my sleeve 9" or so it is a bit ridiculous, but... I am a huge carry advocate and I feel that everyone that is legally able to carry should and that permit should be valid nation wide (a current bill in senate now, its been there since 2006 called HR 4547) so I am truely on your side but unfortunitly the law isnt. I hope I answered your questions and if you have any moe then just shout out. I wish you the best in this battle.

Glock Fan · #7 03-04-2008, 05:14 AM

I will try to help you but you are fighting a losing battle.

It's a difficult battle, but I feel that it's far from a "losing" one.

Typically the rebuttle is that most CCW permit holders are not trained to protect themselves or other in high stress situations(combat envirnment) where the loss of fine motor skills is lost, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion just to mention a few. The fact is that nearly 60% of police that are shot are shot with there own guns and they have recieved a minimum of 40+/- hours of weapons retetion training, having been a patrol deputy I know what it is like to have to fight for your life to keep your weapon in your holster if someone "goes" for your gun. Even with all the safe gaurds built into a duty holster it is still a lot of work to keep it in there when you have someone punching you in the face! With-out the acadamy training and Marine corp training I would most likely be dead. The average CCW permittee has had ZERO WEAPONS RETENTION TRAINING and in some case's they cant even hit what they are shooting at!!

This is far from what I would expect from someone who is "trying to help". Sounds more like something from the anti 2A people. While what you say about fine motor skills, tunnel vision, etc is somewhat true, it doesn't necessarily apply to the situation that the OP is talking about. Your experiences are base on "open carry" while working as a UNIFORMED LEO. With CCW, the BG shouldn't know that you're "carrying" until you actually draw your firearm. The jabber about "academy training" and "Marine Corps training" is unnecessary. While most CCW license holders may have minimal to no firearms retention training, you fail to understand that it's often unnecessary. Should the need to draw a firearm arise, it would be THE "last resort". I don't know about you, but if I find myself in such a situation, I'll be too busy shooting and the BG would be too busy worrying about my muzzle flash and "lead poisoning" to be going for my gun. As for your claim about CCW license holders not being able to shoot, I would have to disagree. I often out shoot many "trained" LEO. Most of the average LEO that I know (from various states and jurisdictions) qualify only once or twice each year. They train using a DUTY holster which is often OPEN CARRY. Most fail to train in the "off duty" mode. Many of them "carry" in a fanny pack, purse, back pack, etc. This puts them at a serious disadvantage when in a "real" situation. I practice "force on force" drills with my LEO buddies. We use airsoft guns that are identical to our primary carry firearms. The "real life" drills we practice are often an eye opener for them. They're amazed that they get shot so many times by civilians who "don't know anything" about carrying a concealed firearm. :icon_wink:

The other issue is that State University's are STATE PROPERTY just ast the capitol or any other state office. The fact that a CCW permit DOES NOT allow ANYONE to carry in such building's is the biggest thing they have on there side (be very glad that they have not charged you with a felony weapons charge for doing so) so the major issue lies with the state laws as to the limitations of CCW permittee's can carry where. That his why I say it is a uphill battle, before any "policy change" could take place first the state laws would have to be changed because the Chief of campus police(Local PD has no juristiction just like the capitol building but the campus police will sometimes ask for assistance) could have a outer body experience and say yes but the state laws would over-ride any policy in place at the universirty level.

The OP is asking about MA laws. Not sure if you realized that. I wouldn't put too much currency on advice from a ME LEO regarding MA laws. It's like having a brain surgeon telling me how to rebuild my transmission. I'm not an attorney and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I suggest that folks check out their local laws before doing anything. Retain the services of a local attorney if necessary. Know your rights under the law and stay out of trouble.

Now dont get me wrong I am a LIFE member of the NRA and a certified in structor of all but one course the NRA offers, I have NRA Instructor rockers(indicates each cousre a instructor is certified to teach) going down my sleeve 9" or so it is a bit ridiculous, but... I am a huge carry advocate and I feel that everyone that is legally able to carry should and that permit should be valid nation wide (a current bill in senate now, its been there since 2006 called HR 4547) so I am truely on your side but unfortunitly the law isnt.

Who are you trying to fool? If you are a true 2A supporter, then act like one. Get off of your high horse about how you're better trained yet got your a$$ whipped by some perp who attempted to snatch your OPEN CARRY sidearm. Remember that as a CCW license holder, it's our responsibility to keep a low profile. NRA teaches folks to get away from trouble. (If you haven't noticed, I'm a NRA instructor as well.) A LEO carrying vs. a citizen carrying are two completely different situations. The LEO is duty bound to "serve and protect". The citizen has a right to bear arms and use them only as a last resort in self defense or in defense of others. I find it very irresponsible for a citizen to go out hunting BG. They SHOULD be punished if they do something outside of "self defense" or "defense of others". As a LEO I would think that you understand this concept.

gf