Balance of power?

[handgonnetoter]

The problem is simple economics. We cannot afford a massive military any longer. The Air force is in the same boat, so to speak. Guns or butter. The country has chosen butter, whether people like you and me like it or not.

I know, your right. We might just as well embrace the horror and go down swinging.

[mappow]

The engineering of a rocket thrown Torpedo and or a platform to deliver that weapon is not new nor is a high speed Torpedo. Usually, at least in the last say 40 years, when DOD and or some other Gov't entity requests a system, they usually request a countermeasures to their own system. At times funding will not allow a countermeasure to be developed but for the most part it is at least studied and a threat assessment is established. Failure of this was shown in the rescue attempt with the Iranian Hostages. We were blown out of the sky by our own SAM missiles that we had sold the Shah. I mentioned this only in the fact that ANTI-Missile systems and ANTI-Torpedo systems are out there and in continued development. These ANTI systems came out of the engineering that produced the original systems.
I believe and pray we have kept our edge in R&D and have a countermeasure established. There's a lot of programs hidden within programs that fund the research needed to combat our foes of today and the future. There is also many, many systems that cannot be mentioned and or confirmed. I hope there is one that will defeat this one.

[HunterLee]

Failure of this was shown in the rescue attempt with the Iranian Hostages. We were blown out of the sky by our own SAM missiles that we had sold the Shah.

I know the above quote has nothing to do with the current topic; but you must have some REAL GOOD inside information (Security clearance). Because, as I recall, the Helicopters Collided, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to see through dust/dirt/sand with Night Vision Goggles. If they were taken out by SAM's as you say, it would have had to be done while they were VERY CLOSE together and VERY CLOSE to the ground. As the wreckage of the destroyed equipment were VERY CLOSE to each other. I was in the Army at that time, and I remember some friends who dissapeared for awhile (TDY) training for (nothing)? Luckily for them, they were not chosen to go. BTW I was in the 155 AVN Assult/Attack Helicopter Co., Which ended up being absorbed by the 7th Combat Avn Btn, 7th Infantry Div. Fort Ord Ca. at the time.

[Islander]

Submarines have been the only "safe" naval ship against a 1st World threat for a long time. Even these are not invincible and are limited in assault capability compared to ACCs.

6-Years of Submarine Service
10 Years in the Defense Industry
Top Secret Security Clearance

[Cocked _and_Locked]

... the Helicopters Collided, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to see through dust/dirt/sand

This is closer to the real truth. As you mentioned, the SAM story is pure fantasy. What really happened was, they were forced down at an unscheduled stop/location due to navigation error. Subsequently, mechanical malfunction due to FOD ingestion disabled one of the choppers. The Navy Sea Stallions were not prepared for desert operations requiring additional filtration and hardened flight surfaces. Two others collided attempting to take off again in the ensuing chaos and reduced visibility.

[AR Hammer]

I know the above quote has nothing to do with the current topic; but you must have some REAL GOOD inside information (Security clearance). Because, as I recall, the Helicopters Collided, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to see through dust/dirt/sand with Night Vision Goggles. If they were taken out by SAM's as you say, it would have had to be done while they were VERY CLOSE together and VERY CLOSE to the ground. As the wreckage of the destroyed equipment were VERY CLOSE to each other. I was in the Army at that time, and I remember some friends who dissapeared for awhile (TDY) training for (nothing)? Luckily for them, they were not chosen to go. BTW I was in the 155 AVN Assult/Attack Helicopter Co., Which ended up being absorbed by the 7th Combat Avn Btn, 7th Infantry Div. Fort Ord Ca. at the time.

As 'Boot On The Ground' during that incident, without going into painful detail, I can tell you it was a navigation accident, Human Error compounded by weather.
If it hadn't been for the Bedawans in the area, we would have lost a LOT more people, maybe the entire assault force...
That was one bad refuel stop caused by bad navigation.

Rotors simply got into a parked aircraft, and the aircraft behind plowed into the ones on the ground.
You couldn't judge dept (no depth perception) in the early night vision units and they collided.
These were the MOST experienced pilots and had trained extensively,
Showing once again, Murphy rides with you into combat... (and still does!)
It's combat, and ANYTHING can happen, you can't blame the soldiers or the aircraft, it was just plain bad luck.

That particular incident prompted a new class of night vision for pilots, and the program progresses to this day.
The military won't be satisfied until they have 'Bionic Eyes' that provide depth perception, and that will be one very good day for our pilots!

No 'Enemy Action' was involved, just plain bad luck and hateful conditions.

[HunterLee]

As 'Boot On The Ground' during that incident, without going into painful detail, I can tell you it was a navigation accident, Human Error compounded by weather.
If it hadn't been for the Bedawans in the area, we would have lost a LOT more people, maybe the entire assault force...That was one bad refuel stop caused by bad navigation.

You couldn't judge dept (no depth perception) in the early night vision units and they collided.
These were the MOST experienced pilots and had trained extensively,

No 'Enemy Action' was involved, just plain bad luck and hateful conditions.

GOD BLESS; and I SALUTE YOU! WE ALL TRAINED FOR DESERT WAREFARE BACK THEN "EXTENSIVELY"! (THE GOV. HAD A GOOD IDEA WHO, AND WHERE WE WOULD BE FIGHTING IN THE FUTURE). I USED TO CREW CHIEF A HUEY THAT FLEW CRASH RESCUE OVER WAR GAMES IN THE DESERT, AND WE ALL WORE NIGHT VISION (THE GAME PLAYERS BELOW, IN COBRAS AND 58'S) AND US, THE CRASH RESCUE AS WE WATCHED THE GAME PLAY OUT BELOW (WE WERE ABOUT 2500 - 5000 FT ASL). AGAIN I SALUTE YOU FOR BEING THERE.