Finally, something I can agree with Obama on!

What non-union comapny pays the people they lay off almost a full salary for - what is the figure? - 18 months? A year? I don't care what job you do - if it ain't some professional or hi-tech job, it ain't worth $70/hr. I agree that the management has been making a LOT of money in the deal, too. And they ought to get caught in the same vice. The company tanks, so does their income - no "golden parachutes!" But, damn!, just how much longer are we going to be expected to pay all these guys so they can bask in comfort while the rest of us are failing? These manufacturers have been doing bad business for years, and it just caught up to them. Them and their unions, who have been right along for the ride.

Chapter 11, re-org, and bite the bullet (how apropos!). We're all down on our luck, and these guys shouldn't be getting any special treatment.

[Sheldon]

Originally Posted by tattedupboy

The proof is in the pudding. The American companies, whose workers are represented by the UAW, are failing, while the foreign companies, while not doing as well as in years past, are still surviving. Why is that? I'll tell you why. The unions are placing such unreasonable demands upon the companies that the cost of doing business has become unsustainable.

That is a Fallacy, the union worker contributes less than $1,000.00 to the cost of a new car, yeah they claim over 2k but that is the so called benefits, the problem with that number is most of the big companies use a insurance company that allows them to be self insured there by cutting the actual benefits cost radically. Think about it, 1-3 workers per car, lets say it takes 8 hours for a car to go from end to end, which if I remember from the plant tour I did is about right, times lets round it up to 30 bucks a hour, now do the math and it is a lot less than two grand. Heck their CEO and board's bonus adds as much to the end cost as the worker dose but you do not hear anyone yelling cap the upper echelon.

Americans buying more foreign cars and trucks, Foreign companies importing more materials to build their cars here, placing their newer hence more efficient factories in parts of the county where the wage base is lower, being in the south means lower energy costs for them. Just a few of the factors of why they are doing better.

So real quick how many of you all drive a foreign car??? BTY not me, Other than my 55 Jag, I have Chevy, Ford, and Jeep, in the garage or on the road. Don't want to hear the "they are more reliable" the big three have gone a long way on quality control since the 80's, don't want to hear they are cheaper, you can deal on any vehicle in the lot if you do your research first. Don't want to hear "reliability" I had junk Honda's back in the 70's and 80's they were a maintenance nightmare when major stuff happened and it did. You can get 250,000 miles out of a American built car that is unless you live in Michigan where the road salt will kill it before it's time.

[tattedupboy]

Originally Posted by Sheldon

That is a Fallacy, the union worker contributes less than $1,000.00 to the cost of a new car, yeah they claim over 2k but that is the so called benefits, the problem with that number is most of the big companies use a insurance company that allows them to be self insured there by cutting the actual benefits cost radically. Think about it, 1-3 workers per car, lets say it takes 8 hours for a car to go from end to end, which if I remember from the plant tour I did is about right, times lets round it up to 30 bucks a hour, now do the math and it is a lot less than two grand. Heck their CEO and board's bonus adds as much to the end cost as the worker dose but you do not hear anyone yelling cap the upper echelon.

Americans buying more foreign cars and trucks, Foreign companies importing more materials to build their cars here, placing their newer hence more efficient factories in parts of the county where the wage base is lower, being in the south means lower energy costs for them. Just a few of the factors of why they are doing better.

So real quick how many of you all drive a foreign car??? BTY not me, Other than my 55 Jag, I have Chevy, Ford, and Jeep, in the garage or on the road. Don't want to hear the "they are more reliable" the big three have gone a long way on quality control since the 80's, don't want to hear they are cheaper, you can deal on any vehicle in the lot if you do your research first. Don't want to hear "reliability" I had junk Honda's back in the 70's and 80's they were a maintenance nightmare when major stuff happened and it did. You can get 250,000 miles out of a American built car that is unless you live in Michigan where the road salt will kill it before it's time.

If it were such a fallacy, the auto companies would not be doing so poorly, would they? As I said in my previous post, the proof is in the pudding.

[Sheldon]

Originally Posted by tattedupboy

If it were such a fallacy, the auto companies would not be doing so poorly, would they? As I said in my previous post, the proof is in the pudding.

Look at the sales numbers, volume is lowest it has been in years, I repeat FALLACY.

[ricbak]

Originally Posted by Sheldon

That is a Fallacy, the union worker contributes less than $1,000.00 to the cost of a new car, yeah they claim over 2k but that is the so called benefits,

This number is realistic.. or closer to a real number than the media is reporting. This is especially so after last falls round of contracts.

... I Think about it, 1-3 workers per car, lets say it takes 8 hours for a car to go from end to end,

That varies between car/truck lines. A Focus is easier to build than a Suburban.

Americans buying more foreign cars and trucks, Foreign companies importing more materials to build their cars here, placing their newer hence more efficient factories in parts of the county where the wage base is lower, being in the south means lower energy costs for them. Just a few of the factors of why they are doing better.

Then figure in the tax breaks and infrastucture improvments given to M-Benz and Toyota by Alabama. So much for patroitism. And yes there are people trying to get to the numbers but are being stonewalled. I am afraid it will take a FOI law suit to get to the truth.

...So real quick how many of you all drive a foreign car??? BTY not me, Other than my 55 Jag, I have Chevy, Ford, and Jeep, in the garage or on the road. Don't want to hear the "they are more reliable" the big three have gone a long way on quality control since the 80's, don't want to hear they are cheaper, you can deal on any vehicle in the lot if you do your research first. Don't want to hear "reliability" I had junk Honda's back in the 70's and 80's they were a maintenance nightmare when major stuff happened and it did. You can get 250,000 miles out of a American built car that is unless you live in Michigan where the road salt will kill it before it's time.

Good point. With more use of Dip Phosphate Solution (ELPO) and more galvanized sheet metal, even road salt problems are not what they used to be.
I have worked for 5 of the majors in the USA and Canada. The 3 Detroit Manufacturers are leaders in Tech and Producivity. Second to none.
During my travels, I was amazed at the number of foreign cars on the road on both "Coasts", east or west. Look around a little bit. We have to fix the credit markets before any of the majors do better. There are buyers out there, They can not get finacinng. Tarp money is a band aid, we have to sell vehicles. I am truely insulted that Tarp Money is used for Xmas Bonuses, yet the UAW is being told to take more cuts. What is wrong with that picture?
I do apologize for losing my composure. Merry Chrstmas All

[tattedupboy]

Originally Posted by Sheldon

Look at the sales numbers, volume is lowest it has been in years, I repeat FALLACY.

Well, the recession is really just rubbing salt into the wound. If you look at sales for the past few years, prior to the recession, sales have been looking like this for the past several years now. What fallacy are you talking about?

[wolfhunter]

Haven't heard a figure from Chrysler, but both Ford and GM report a $300-$500 LOSS on each vehicle sold (not built). Toyota reports an average $1500 PROFIT on each sale. Either Toyota management/shareholders make a lot less, or the operating costs (including labor) are much lower than their counterparts. Simple business economics say the big three (and their unions) become competetive or extinct.

[tattedupboy]

While I am no fan of the unions, let me also make it clear that the CEOs of these companies and their salaries don't exactly help things either. If their companies were doing well, then maybe their salaries, benefits, and, and other perks could be justified. However, why are they allowed to hold on to these things if their companies are faring so poorly?

Here is a remark from someone who has bassically worked for himself all his life.
First, anyone who works for me, who ever, ever, tries to tell me what to pay him, is fired. Period.If I am the boss, I make those descisions. I have never demanded anyone even come to work, as long as they call, and I could care less about most things, but do what you are told, when you are told to do it, for the pay that is offered, or leave. Anything else says to me that you aren't capable of gertting a job anywhere else, so I must have been getting taken for a ride all along, anyway.Now if a man wants to talk about his compensation, I am all ears. I can be swayed to increse or decresae hours, salary, whatever, but I stress that I can be swayed. utimateums will all get the same reaction.

The same goes for working for someone else. If I can't get along with someone, I don't do business with them anymore. Period. Adversarial relationships neer work, whether it is business or your personal life.

The last thing is this. The auto industy has from the beginning been a capital intensive business. If you wanted to start a new auto company today, what do you think your chances of success would be? None . The reasonsa are but few. Government regulation, the vast amount of capital neede, and distribution. Did I mention competition? The auto industry as we know it couldn't exist without government regulations, because that is the club that the auto makers use to keep out forign and domestic competition, as well as an excuse for more new models. If everyone has to comply with a new fedral regulation by 2020, then everyone pretty well knows what the competition will be doing. The moneymen can't lose. Unless we go throiugh one of these "recessions". Then they cry for a "bailout"

The auto workers nor the "manegement "get any sympathy from me. If they had to compete in a real "free market" they would all starve to death.

[gdcleanfun]

Originally Posted by gpbarth

And those workers are very happy with the pay they're making, too. The unions claim to fight for the "middle class," but they want all of their workers to get paid exorbitant salaries for doing even menial tasks. Union wages, when bennies are figured in, make about $70 per hour. What? For welding a part on every bumper? For operating a robot? The unions want most of the profits the companies make, because "without them the companies wouldn't make any money." Weird thinking, eh?

I worked 24 years for Motorola, a non-union company, and every few years the unions would try to get in. They were always voted out by the employees. I worked my way up from technician to network engineer, and ended up making $76K per year, which I never had any problems with. And I was salaried, which meant I worked a lot of OT with no extra compensation.

Unions? What unions? We don' got no unions! We don' need no steenkin' unions!

$70 per hour? If I had ever made that kind of money including benefits while working on the assembly line I'd own a castle! I don't. That's a crock that auto workers made that kind of money, an urban legend that will never be squelched. I wish I'd have made that kind of money. I'd like to tan the hide of who ever started that rumor! With my benefits and my hourly wages it would never happen! You made more than I ever did @ $36 and change per hour to equal your $76,000 a year. I made $30 an hour, including all my benefits, while working on the line with the union representation. As well, workers in the construction industry made more than we did on the assembly line. Get real!