Finally, something I can agree with Obama on!

[tattedupboy]

Originally Posted by gdcleanfun

$70 per hour? If I had ever made that kind of money including benefits while working on the assembly line I'd own a castle! I don't. That's a crock that auto workers made that kind of money, an urban legend that will never be squelched. I wish I'd have made that kind of money. I'd like to tan the hide of who ever started that rumor! With my benefits and my hourly wages it would never happen! You made more than I ever did @ $36 and change per hour to equal your $76,000 a year. I made $30 an hour, including all my benefits, while working on the line with the union representation. As well, workers in the construction industry made more than we did on the assembly line. Get real!

I agree that the $70/hour figure does seem a bit high. Nevertheless, the unions with their unreasonable demands, as well as upper management, with their unreasonable salaries and perks, are both contributing to the downfall of the auto industry,

[gdcleanfun]

Originally Posted by tattedupboy

I agree that the $70/hour figure does seem a bit high. Nevertheless, the unions with their unreasonable demands, as well as upper management, with their unreasonable salaries and perks, are both contributing to the downfall of the auto industry,

Unreasonable demands? Before I retired 2 years ago from one of the auto manufactures I'd not had a raise, nor a cost of living allowance, for 16 years. Yes, 16 years. Do you think the media printed that? Of course not!!! My assembly plant, in Van Nuys, California, was closed in 1992. It's 2008. 16 years it's been since my pay was raised or my COLA was adjusted. Do you receive a Cost Of Living Allowance? Does your paycheck keep up with the economy? Are you falling backwards? I am! My retirement pay is being eroded. Tell me, what unreasonable demands did I make? All we did, as union workers, was give and give and give. We gave back to the company. We gave concessions. We still give concessions! But, you never hear about what we give, what we've given in the past. The only thing the press prints is what the management says. In my opinion, the hundreds of thousands of dollars that management "earned" and still "earn" now are what is unreasonable! How can an industry ask for a bail out and then give the hundreds of millions of dollars to management in the form of bonuses and perks? That is what I'll never understand!!! That's business for ya, and then management blames it on the union workers rather than taking the blame themselves. That's a load of crock!

[ricbak]

+1 GD....

Originally Posted by gdcleanfun

... Do you think the media printed that? Of course not!!! My assembly plant, in Van Nuys, California, was closed in 1992..

If I rememeber correctly, Fremont and Van Nuys were the last two plants GM Had on the west coast. I tryed to transfer there.

..Are you falling backwards? I am! My retirement pay is being eroded. Tell me, what unreasonable demands did I make? All we did, as union workers, was give and give and give. We gave back to the company. We gave concessions. We still give concessions! But, you never hear about what we give, what we've given in the past....

Somewhere in this thread is a remark about welding a part to a bumper. Sounds simple, Right? Try getting the part out of the shipping box, locating the part in postion, Getting your weld gun and wrestling it into postion, Weld, Wrestling to a new position, Weld, and REpeat one or two more times, All Within 48 seconds. We are certainly not giving these line workers enough respect. To do this in a lot of cases 10/day 6 days a week. Let alone that that bumber may weigh a couple pounds. Then bring in the Government, OHSA, and Ergonomic issues. Mexico and China do not have to meet these standards. It is acceptable to place 6 people inside a multi ton press to move parts between processes. If you loose your arm or life, soo sorry.. The manufacturer will just go outside and get a new body. Who cares?
My father in law died of cancer. Not from Smoking, but from the environment he spent 30 some years in. I am saying there is plenty of blame. Everybody has a stake in it.
DocMag stated that this is a Capital Intense Business. What an understatement. To put a plant in does cost hundreds of millions of Dollars. To Close a plant also does cost millions.
On the Ligter side.. It was reported that the employees walking out of a Janesville Wi Plant on their last day, were hanging their shoes on the fense or throwing them at building.

[gdcleanfun]

Originally Posted by ricbak

+1 GD....

If I rememeber correctly, Fremont and Van Nuys were the last two plants GM Had on the west coast. I tryed to transfer there.

Somewhere in this thread is a remark about welding a part to a bumper. Sounds simple, Right? Try getting the part out of the shipping box, locating the part in postion, Getting your weld gun and wrestling it into postion, Weld, Wrestling to a new position, Weld, and REpeat one or two more times, All Within 48 seconds. We are certainly not giving these line workers enough respect. To do this in a lot of cases 10/day 6 days a week. Let alone that that bumber may weigh a couple pounds. Then bring in the Government, OHSA, and Ergonomic issues. Mexico and China do not have to meet these standards. It is acceptable to place 6 people inside a multi ton press to move parts between processes. If you loose your arm or life, soo sorry.. The manufacturer will just go outside and get a new body. Who cares?
My father in law died of cancer. Not from Smoking, but from the environment he spent 30 some years in. I am saying there is plenty of blame. Everybody has a stake in it.
DocMag stated that this is a Capital Intense Business. What an understatement. To put a plant in does cost hundreds of millions of Dollars. To Close a plant also does cost millions.
On the Ligter side.. It was reported that the employees walking out of a Janesville Wi Plant on their last day, were hanging their shoes on the fense or throwing them at building.

Yes, the Van Nuys plant was the last one standing in Southern California, idled then closed in 1992. The NUMMI Assembly plant, in Freemont, near San Francisco, is still there, though they too have scaled back production. It's not only the big 3 automakers that have been hit, it's all of them. It's the economy, not the unions, nor the auto plants, that's hurting everyone and everything. Granted, when the bailout money goes into the salaried pockets of those management types who make a fortune with their stock options and million dollar a year salaries, it makes it seem as if all of the assembly line workers are "doing in" the rest of the economy. Such is not the case! Try looking at the banks and their mortgage practices. They have more of a hand in this economy breakdown than does any other industry.

[Sheldon]

Originally Posted by tattedupboy

I agree that the $70/hour figure does seem a bit high. Nevertheless, the unions with their unreasonable demands, as well as upper management, with their unreasonable salaries and perks, are both contributing to the downfall of the auto industry,

I'm at a loss here, since when is a fair wage, medical coverage, paid vacation, a retirement package, the right to work in a safe and non harassed work place unreasonable?
As i said before the company tend to inflate the bottom line a heap (try 150%) when it is to their advantage. You make $24 a hour then they add up a lot of invisible stuff like social security, and unemployment benefits to the how much they pay line which is bull.

[loudes13]

Today in Investor's Business Daily stock analysis and business news

The UAW Reneges

INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY

Posted 12/24/2008

Autos: The government gave the Big Three a $17.3 billion bailout based on the idea that both management and the unions would make concessions. Now the UAW says no thanks. Can we have our money back?

Last week's deal was supposed to hold both the managers' and unions' feet to the fire. In handing out the taxpayer money, the White House insisted the auto union cut worker pay roughly to the levels of their successful competitors, Toyota, Honda and Nissan.

For $17 billion in emergency bailout cash and possibly much more later, it was a reasonable request. As President Bush said, "The time to make the hard decisions to become viable is now — or the only option will be bankruptcy." He added that a deadline of March 31 for the industry to prove its "viability" and other limits "send a clear signal to everyone involved."

Well, if so, the United Auto Workers didn't get it.

Just days before Christmas, the UAW let it be known it'll fight any concessions on wages and benefits. "An undue tax on the workers" is how union boss Ron Gettelfinger described it as the UAW reneged on the deal almost before the ink was dry.

This will go down as one of the most cynical acts of political manipulation ever. The UAW agreed to one thing with President Bush, knowing full well President-elect Barack Obama and congressional Democrats were big recipients of union largesse and would let them slide. They read the situation correctly.

Democratic Rep. Barney Frank this week called union concessions an "unfair assault on working men and women" — a not-accidental echo of Gettelfinger's comments.

But the only real assault on "working men and women" here is the enormous cost this bailout will entail — a cost that all working taxpayers will have to bear and which some analysts think will ultimately total $75 billion to $125 billion.

And the UAW hopes you'll pony it up and give them a free ride.

U.S. automakers are in trouble for two reasons. One, they have massive legacy costs on their books to take care of retired workers, and two, their labor costs are much higher than their competition.

Recent estimates put average UAW worker compensation at $55 an hour to $73 an hour, vs. $45 for the transplant automakers. So at a minimum, UAW workers are $10 an hour more expensive to hire than the 114,000 workers who toil at transplant auto plants situated mostly in the non-union South.

Simply put, unless the UAW makes concessions, a bailout can't work. It will be a financial impossibility. The U.S. automakers' high labor costs, coupled with the 2,000-plus pages of work rules and union requirements under the most recent labor deal, will keep them from achieving the productivity they need to compete.

The U.S. automakers are bleeding $6 billion a month. Better to pull the plug now and force them into bankruptcy, where radical restructuring — including cuts in union pay and benefits — wouldn't be optional but mandatory. That's the industry's only hope.

[gdcleanfun]

Originally Posted by loudes13

Today in Investor's Business Daily stock analysis and business news

The UAW Reneges

INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY

Posted 12/24/2008

Autos: The government gave the Big Three a $17.3 billion bailout based on the idea that both management and the unions would make concessions. Now the UAW says no thanks. Can we have our money back?

Last week's deal was supposed to hold both the managers' and unions' feet to the fire. In handing out the taxpayer money, the White House insisted the auto union cut worker pay roughly to the levels of their successful competitors, Toyota, Honda and Nissan.

For $17 billion in emergency bailout cash and possibly much more later, it was a reasonable request. As President Bush said, "The time to make the hard decisions to become viable is now — or the only option will be bankruptcy." He added that a deadline of March 31 for the industry to prove its "viability" and other limits "send a clear signal to everyone involved."

Well, if so, the United Auto Workers didn't get it.

Just days before Christmas, the UAW let it be known it'll fight any concessions on wages and benefits. "An undue tax on the workers" is how union boss Ron Gettelfinger described it as the UAW reneged on the deal almost before the ink was dry.

This will go down as one of the most cynical acts of political manipulation ever. The UAW agreed to one thing with President Bush, knowing full well President-elect Barack Obama and congressional Democrats were big recipients of union largesse and would let them slide. They read the situation correctly.

Democratic Rep. Barney Frank this week called union concessions an "unfair assault on working men and women" — a not-accidental echo of Gettelfinger's comments.

But the only real assault on "working men and women" here is the enormous cost this bailout will entail — a cost that all working taxpayers will have to bear and which some analysts think will ultimately total $75 billion to $125 billion.

And the UAW hopes you'll pony it up and give them a free ride.

U.S. automakers are in trouble for two reasons. One, they have massive legacy costs on their books to take care of retired workers, and two, their labor costs are much higher than their competition.

Recent estimates put average UAW worker compensation at $55 an hour to $73 an hour, vs. $45 for the transplant automakers. So at a minimum, UAW workers are $10 an hour more expensive to hire than the 114,000 workers who toil at transplant auto plants situated mostly in the non-union South.

Simply put, unless the UAW makes concessions, a bailout can't work. It will be a financial impossibility. The U.S. automakers' high labor costs, coupled with the 2,000-plus pages of work rules and union requirements under the most recent labor deal, will keep them from achieving the productivity they need to compete.

The U.S. automakers are bleeding $6 billion a month. Better to pull the plug now and force them into bankruptcy, where radical restructuring — including cuts in union pay and benefits — wouldn't be optional but mandatory. That's the industry's only hope.

Again, do the research! Check the mortgage industry. Check w/ Wall Street investing. They brought down the economy, not the auto workers! I'm really tired of being the scapegoat and hearing the blame for what we did not do! How about Lehman Brothers, Tribune, Best Buy, Circuit City, Sharper Image, Lilly Vernon, Washington Mutual? Did we cause all of their failures? Their Chapter 7s, 11s? No, of course not! This author needs to get real!

I want someone to prove to me that I made between $55 and $73 an hour! Go on! I dare ya! I didn't. I don't! I cannot prove it to you that I didn't. I can only show you my pay stubs but then this Investor's Business Daily would just say that I'm lying, that I forged them. All 30 years worth of them! Can you say urban legend? That's exactly what it is, an urban legend that can't be stopped! The so-called "foreign" automotive makers give the same benefits to their workers. Yes, they make less in base pay, but they make it up in their benefits on the job, and hard perks in the factories on their benefits. That's not reported by the media, is it? Nope! Never!

When will the media give it up? Never! Their lies sell their papers and drive people to their internet sites where their advertisers make them all money! Don't for one minute, not one, think that their reporting is not biased for that!

Stepping off my soap box but only for now!

First off, I don't read anything in this about UAW bringing down the economy. I read the union is a big part of bringing down the auto industry. Who said UAW brought down the real estate or mortgage business, the stock market, or anything else but GM, Chrysler and Ford?

Next, the foreign auto manufacturers aren't asking for a bail-out, and are not on the verge of bankruptcy. One big difference - there are no unions. And the companies aren't keeping them out - the employees are. So you can kind of understand why the blame is being laid at the union feet.

And - I seem to think that long before the news was all over the UAW, most people already believed that the union was asking too much from the industry. Just as the general public wanted no bail-out for Wall Street, they wanted no bail-out for the auto industry. But the government decided otherwise. And if the UAW agreed to help in the recovery by taking wage and benefits cuts, and is now reneging on that agreement, it only tends to prove the people right.

I think the executives should all be fired, the industry should be restructured, and if the union wants to stay they'll have to bear a bit of the burden themselves. It's only fair.

[gdcleanfun]

Originally Posted by tattedupboy

I agree that the $70/hour figure does seem a bit high. Nevertheless, the unions with their unreasonable demands, as well as upper management, with their unreasonable salaries and perks, are both contributing to the downfall of the auto industry,

To say that the workers, UAW or not, make unreasonable demands and "cripple" or "bring down" the auto industry would be like saying that the tellers behind the Washington Mutual windows brought about that company's bankruptcy. That's bunk!

[gdcleanfun]

Originally Posted by gpbarth

First off, I don't read anything in this about UAW bringing down the economy. I read the union is a big part of bringing down the auto industry. Who said UAW brought down the real estate or mortgage business, the stock market, or anything else but GM, Chrysler and Ford?

Next, the foreign auto manufacturers aren't asking for a bail-out, and are not on the verge of bankruptcy. One big difference - there are no unions. And the companies aren't keeping them out - the employees are. So you can kind of understand why the blame is being laid at the union feet.

And - I seem to think that long before the news was all over the UAW, most people already believed that the union was asking too much from the industry. Just as the general public wanted no bail-out for Wall Street, they wanted no bail-out for the auto industry. But the government decided otherwise. And if the UAW agreed to help in the recovery by taking wage and benefits cuts, and is now reneging on that agreement, it only tends to prove the people right.

I think the executives should all be fired, the industry should be restructured, and if the union wants to stay they'll have to bear a bit of the burden themselves. It's only fair.

No, it's not because there are no unions. It's because the management at the "foreign companies" make good decisions. If the management at the big 3 domestic companies made good decisions then there would be no bailouts needed.