Finally, something I can agree with Obama on!

[gdcleanfun]

Originally Posted by gpbarth

So you're a socialist, eh? Why doesn't everyone deserve a house, two cars, free medical care, 30 days of vacation every year, etc., etc.? Who is going to pay for all of these perks? We are. That is, those of us who actually work for a living, and honestly earn their pay. Good ol' Robin Hood thinking.

I have never had any problems working for any company I spent time with, with the exception of union companies. And I worked for the TWU, IBEW and Teamsters. I gladly accepted the offer of employment, worked hard at what I did, proved myself, learned and advanced. I didn't expect $16/hr. as a starting salary - I earned it. In union shops you don't earn it. Seniority rules - if you're an a**hole who shows up every once in awhile and maybe works a little bit between smoke breaks (you won't get fired - you have a union steward to fight for you with management), you're going to get that next promotion over the guy who got hired the day after you did, who shows up for work religiously, every day, does his job and then some, learns how to do more and wants to get ahead.

If you want that "living wage," earn it. Work your way up. Unemployed? Take whatever you can find, work hard...if the job doesn't pan out, look elsewhere. I don't know why everyone should be handed a job making a good wage when they haven't earned it. I believe in the rights of everyone to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But I don't believe that everyone should be handed them on a silver platter. If you don't earn something, you don't appreciate it, you expect it.

And right now, that's what's happening to this country. Everyone is expecting a hand-out, everyone wants something for nothing, everyone wants to be bailed out of situations they got themselves into. Is that right?

Ah, I detect more than a hint of sarcasm in your post and maybe you feel that some union workers are *assh*l*s, or that it's the norm that people only show up for work once in a while because in union shops they don't earn it, they are entitled to it and expect it as a handout. Not so. Yet, that's okay. We are all entitled to our opinions, good or bad. Most of us believe that our own opinion is good and others' are bad, n'est pas? I'm done now. I don't like throwing sarcastic barbs I just like discussing the facts, but you've gone over and above and your emotions have taken over your posts. Thanks for the interesting discussion, but I'm moving on.

[HK4U]

Originally Posted by gdcleanfun

Ah, I detect more than a hint of sarcasm in your post and maybe you feel that some union workers are *assh*l*s, or that it's the norm that people only show up for work once in a while because in union shops they don't earn it, they are entitled to it and expect it as a handout. Not so. Yet, that's okay. We are all entitled to our opinions, good or bad. Most of us believe that our own opinion is good and others' are bad, n'est pas? I'm done now. I don't like throwing sarcastic barbs I just like discussing the facts, but you've gone over and above and your emotions have taken over your posts. Thanks for the interesting discussion, but I'm moving on.

Not all union members are bad . During the almost fifteen years that I was a union member I met and worked with a lot of people. Many were great people but some were lazy no goods that did very little and were off from work almost as much as they were there. I have seen the union get them back on the job over and over again. I also new some that thought the union was God. There are some good things that the union does however as I have said before there is also some bad.

[gdcleanfun]

Originally Posted by HK4U

Not all union members are bad . During the almost fifteen years that I was a union member I met and worked with a lot of people. Many were great people but some were lazy no goods that did very little and were off from work almost as much as they were there. I have seen the union get them back on the job over and over again. I also new some that thought the union was God. There are some good things that the union does however as I have said before there is also some bad.

HK4U, I agree with what you say, though, I've found it to be true in almost any industry in which I've worked, especially in the military and in the Real Estate industry. No offense, but I saw a heck of a lot of slacking in the Army and in the Reserves, and the some of the most profitable real estate agents were one's who worked horizontally. Relax, everyone, because although I've been a real estate agent for a long, time, I'll never name names. However, I see absolutely no reason to call names. To inject emotion into what was a very detailed and wonderfully open conversation is just a very silly way to attempt to get points across. I love to argue facts and opinions all day long, but name calling is just juvenile; nothing shows an immature reasoning process faster than the use of words like that. That's why I said I was done with that conversation. Maybe I should specify: only done with that person's conversation.

[tattedupboy]

The only things to which anyone is entitled are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This sense of entitlement to which we're referring breeds apathy and a victim mentality. Of course there are unscrupulous employers out there who'll stop at nothing to put profit above the welfare of workers, but that's beside the point. People need to rid themselves of the idea that they are entitled to things that they have not yet earned.

[gdcleanfun]

Originally Posted by gpbarth

So you're a socialist, eh? Why doesn't everyone deserve a house, two cars, free medical care, 30 days of vacation every year, etc., etc.? Who is going to pay for all of these perks? We are. That is, those of us who actually work for a living, and honestly earn their pay. Good ol' Robin Hood thinking.

I have never had any problems working for any company I spent time with, with the exception of union companies. And I worked for the TWU, IBEW and Teamsters. I gladly accepted the offer of employment, worked hard at what I did, proved myself, learned and advanced. I didn't expect $16/hr. as a starting salary - I earned it. In union shops you don't earn it. Seniority rules - if you're an a**hole who shows up every once in awhile and maybe works a little bit between smoke breaks (you won't get fired - you have a union steward to fight for you with management), you're going to get that next promotion over the guy who got hired the day after you did, who shows up for work religiously, every day, does his job and then some, learns how to do more and wants to get ahead.

If you want that "living wage," earn it. Work your way up. Unemployed? Take whatever you can find, work hard...if the job doesn't pan out, look elsewhere. I don't know why everyone should be handed a job making a good wage when they haven't earned it. I believe in the rights of everyone to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But I don't believe that everyone should be handed them on a silver platter. If you don't earn something, you don't appreciate it, you expect it.

And right now, that's what's happening to this country. Everyone is expecting a hand-out, everyone wants something for nothing, everyone wants to be bailed out of situations they got themselves into. Is that right?

People use affirmative action all the time to get things. People use "the old boy network" all the time to get things. Why on earth cannot a group of workers get a decent living wage? We never asked for the golden egg, just a living wage. We don't ask for $72 an hour, just a living wage. Then we can work up from there. People are entitled to 5 or 6 or 7 dollars an hour across the board. What would happen if the whole of the population was entitled to a living wage instead? People wouldn't be poor anymore. What a concept. No one asks for handouts. We ask to be treated as human beings, not commodities in an economic equation.

[wolfhunter]

If employees are entitled to $17 an hour to make bread, how much will bread cost? If I have to pay $17 an hour per employee and my bread now costs $5 a loaf, how much do I charge for my merchandise. Inflating wages doesn't create a "living wage", it creates inflation.

[gdcleanfun]

Sorry, Wolf, we can "if/then" all night long. But the fact remains that just because some one makes a living wage does not mean the price of things will rise. Economics just doesn't work that way. If it did, those on Wall Street who make a killing would send the price of bread up to $100 a loaf. The price went up, and was hard to bear these past few years, but it didn't rise disproportionately.

[tattedupboy]

Originally Posted by gdcleanfun

Sorry, Wolf, we can "if/then" all night long. But the fact remains that just because some one makes a living wage does not mean the price of things will rise. Economics just doesn't work that way. If it did, those on Wall Street who make a killing would send the price of bread up to $100 a loaf. The price went up, and was hard to bear these past few years, but it didn't rise disproportionately.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "living wage." If that's $16/hr for a product that normally costs very little per unit (ie., bread, a newspaper, etc.), then yes, prices will go up. One of the basic rules of economics states that as input prices go up (in this case, the input is labor), the cost to produce the good or service goes up, so therefore, the price that consumers pay will also go up.

[wolfhunter]

And, if consumer prices go up, the "living wage" will have to go up to "keep up". Upward spiralling inflation.

[tattedupboy]

Originally Posted by wolfhunter

And, if consumer prices go up, the "living wage" will have to go up to "keep up". Upward spiralling inflation.

Not necessarily. Minimum wages are determined by political factors, not economic ones. I would be nice if wages, like the prices the prices of consumer goods, were determined by supply and demand, but in low skill industries, they're not.