The undermining of our Christian heritage.....

[JasonE]

While I have been reluctant to jump into this thread, I read through it and feel that the original (and most important) point is being lost. Initially, we started talking about Mr. Graham not being able to speak because it may offend some. This raises 2 huge points (to me). When did offending a small group become more important than comforting a large one. Last time I heard a poll, the country was more Christian than Muslim or atheist (being the groups who would most likely complain). How come no one comes to my defense when I claim to be offended? Is it because I am a member of the 'in' group to denigrate? Secondly, this goes to show how education is lacking. This country was founded as a Christian country. Read the writings from the Founding Fathers. This country came about to give people who were being persecuted a place to express themselves in freedom. They did not try to suppress those who suppressed them as is currently happening here. They left for another country. If you don't like your surroundings, the beautiful thing about America is: You can leave! Find a place where others are like minded and you are comfortable. Please do not force me to fit within your beliefs. I'm not saying you have to leave. You are welcome to stay, this is America. Just don't force me to believe or worship in a way that I don't choose.

Very well said and I completely agree with you!

[Ringo]

I agree, I'm sure our founding fathers are spinning in their graves right now looking at what we have done to our country. Not just the religious aspect, but the overall consumerism, the selling out of our industries to overseas, banks (and other institutions) screwing over their own fellow Americans just to make a buck. The corruption that calls itself our govt...

As for the religious background... if it has been written that in the last days there will be a great falling away and the anti-christ will show up; Then wouldn't you and the other followers of that belief embrace the falling away? If this prophecy is true, and it is comming to a head, then wouldn't that mean the rapture is just around the corner as well? All of those who have accepted christ as your savior shall be taken into heaven, and those that have been left behind shall have to suffer through gods wrath? If this is true then wouldn't trying to reinstill a christian religion into our country just delay this process? I would think you would want to get beamed off this planet as fast as possible to start your next phase of afterlife in paradise.

We Christians don't "embrace" the falling away, we are simply aware of the condition and accept it as another warning sign to be aware of in relation to Christs return. The Rapture can happen at any moment, there is nothing that must happen first, "only the Father knows the day and the hour". The Rapture is a depiction of a Jewish wedding tradition. The groom is Christ and the Church is His bride. In tradition of "old", engagement was as good as married except for the ceremony, living together and the consummation. After the engagement, the groom would go to the fathers house and prepare a room for the newly wed couple to live. When the FATHER was satisfied that the room was complete,(only the father knows the day & the hour) the father would tell the son to go and get his bride to begin the wedding ceremony. When the last person has accepted Christ during this Age of Grace (only God knows who), the Father will tell His Son to go and get His Bride (Rapture) to begin the Wedding Ceremony, or, Wedding Supper of the Lamb. Like HK said, we can't speed it up or slow it down, we can only be aware that the time is near. Just a note, Paradise no longer exists, Paradise was Abraham's Bosom, existing before Christ descended to "take captive, captive". (take those in Paradise to Heaven)

[Onlinedad]

While I have been reluctant to jump into this thread, I read through it and feel that the original (and most important) point is being lost. Initially, we started talking about Mr. Graham not being able to speak because it may offend some. This raises 2 huge points (to me). When did offending a small group become more important than comforting a large one. Last time I heard a poll, the country was more Christian than Muslim or atheist (being the groups who would most likely complain). How come no one comes to my defense when I claim to be offended? Is it because I am a member of the 'in' group to denigrate? Secondly, this goes to show how education is lacking. This country was founded as a Christian country. Read the writings from the Founding Fathers. This country came about to give people who were being persecuted a place to express themselves in freedom. They did not try to suppress those who suppressed them as is currently happening here. They left for another country. If you don't like your surroundings, the beautiful thing about America is: You can leave! Find a place where others are like minded and you are comfortable. Please do not force me to fit within your beliefs. I'm not saying you have to leave. You are welcome to stay, this is America. Just don't force me to believe or worship in a way that I don't choose.

I agree we have strayed far from the original topic... but that happens in a discussion.

Let me respond to your points that you have made.

Your first point "when did offending a small group become more important than comforting a large one"? Well I'm not sure when exactly this did start to come into play. Maybe (I'm just taking a guess here) it started with the civil rights movements. Or maybe before that during the rev war when we decided not to take anymore crap from the majority British govt. Or did it start even farther back than that? Where the minority groups of society decided they did not like being offended by the majority anymore. And decided to that just because the majority likes something does not make it right.

Becoming a politically correct govt and society where it has become taboo to offend anyone is what seems to be the problem. We have moved away from looking at what is right and wrong to worrying about not stepping on anyones toes. For example; we dont want to offend the terrorists because it might hurt they're feelings, even though what they are doing (from our perspective) is wrong.

From my perspective I do not find it offensive to have Mr. Graham speak. How I decided to jump in was to state that I did not think it was right for our govt to pay or endorse any religion. I believe that our govt and any governing parties should remain as neutral as possible when it comes to such a controversary subject as religion.

your second point "this goes to show how education is lacking" I have conceded that our founding fathers were christian in faith. And, I dont think that it is taught with much emphasis because of our tolerances of others, and that we ultimately decided to flee europe so that we would not be oppressed with the european govts decision on what they wanted as a religion.

Perhaps its not that our education is lacking, more that our education has evolved to the point where through science's we can explain the phenomenoms that were once considered miracles. People no longer believe that the sun comes up because of sacrafices or prayer, its because our education has improved and we found out its actually the rotation of the earth.

to finish with your comments, if I am understanding what you are saying, is that you want me to leave (as is anyone of our freedoms), because you think that I am trying to "force you to believe or worship in a certain way".

I think you have this backwards. My whole point was just that, you should not be forcing your religion onto other people. From my stance by putting religion into a governing agency that is exactly what you are doing. The govt says you have to do it this way, because thats is what christianity says to do. Like it has been stated before we left europe so we would could have the freedom to choose the lifestyle/religion that we want. I have already mentioned that I think its great that you have chosen the religion that you have, just dont expect that I should have to believe the same that you do. And, you should not not be offended when someone else questions your beliefs, as I am not offeneded by your beliefs. If you want to believe in santa, or the tooth fairy, or the easter bunny (for example) then good for you. Just dont expect that I have to believe in the same fairy tale stories, and you shouldn't expect that we should dictate to our entire country that we must be good or santa will not leave us any presents.

[Onlinedad]

I am not going to argue with you, it appears you have your hands full enough with the other responses on this thread. I will however say that it is not about what I think is right. It is what this country was founded on, as you have already conceded in another post. The part I find offensive is your attack on what this country was founded on and the foundation of our constitution. To me you are attacking America and I find that very offensife, especially from someone who lives in this country.

First, please feel free to jump into this discussion. The more opinions the better.

I am not sure I fully understand why you feel that it is offensive that someone has a different opinion than you. I am in no way attacking anyone, especially our country/constitution.

Our constitution states that every man is created equal, correct? Just like this is what the anti-slavery groups based their arguments on, shouldn't this also apply to religion as well? If everyone is equal then how can any one religion be better than another? Since all religion has been created by man (I understand that each religion has had a cleric or shaman or prophet, that spoke directly to their deity, and by that logic it could be argued that the religion was told to man by said deity. But, that prophet, cleric, etc. was indeed a man.. so we dont really need to get into that argument... unless you really want to :D )

So by your logic/statements of how we must keep a specific religion in our government, and that is how our government must run the country... isnt this the same oppression that our forefathers originally tried to escape from? And couldn't this oppresive point of view, make all of you that are intolerant of a different belief, or creed, or opinion, bigots? Not that I have labeled any of you as such, but it does fit into the definition. So, forgive me for thinking I am the real rebel patriot trying to stand up for the rights of the non majority christian.

[Onlinedad]

We Christians don't "embrace" the falling away, we are simply aware of the condition and accept it as another warning sign to be aware of in relation to Christs return. The Rapture can happen at any moment, there is nothing that must happen first, "only the Father knows the day and the hour". The Rapture is a depiction of a Jewish wedding tradition. The groom is Christ and the Church is His bride. In tradition of "old", engagement was as good as married except for the ceremony, living together and the consummation. After the engagement, the groom would go to the fathers house and prepare a room for the newly wed couple to live. When the FATHER was satisfied that the room was complete,(only the father knows the day & the hour) the father would tell the son to go and get his bride to begin the wedding ceremony. When the last person has accepted Christ during this Age of Grace (only God knows who), the Father will tell His Son to go and get His Bride (Rapture) to begin the Wedding Ceremony, or, Wedding Supper of the Lamb. Like HK said, we can't speed it up or slow it down, we can only be aware that the time is near. Just a note, Paradise no longer exists, Paradise was Abraham's Bosom, existing before Christ descended to "take captive, captive". (take those in Paradise to Heaven)

I find this interesting. And, I can see the similarities in the wedding tradition. But, if a groom decided to take his sweet time with creating the room, or just refused to create the room, then wouldn't the father flip the groom the bird... thus delaying the rapture of his daughter? Simillarly wouldn't the stalling or prevention of the falling away, delay the fathers decision on being satisied to remove his chosen people?

I didn't really think that the christians would embrace the end of their religious hold with open and loving arms (noone wants to give up their power once they have it). But, just like a child you tell them if you do X, and Y happens then you get Z. And that same child accomplishes X, and they see Y happening, wouldnt they start to get excited to finally get Z?

If paradise no longer exists, then whats the point anyway? I was under the impression that is what heaven was... paradise. A reward for all those who believed.

[Conservative Wife & Mom]

I find this interesting. And, I can see the similarities in the wedding tradition. But, if a groom decided to take his sweet time with creating the room, or just refused to create the room, then wouldn't the father flip the groom the bird... thus delaying the rapture of his daughter? Simillarly wouldn't the stalling or prevention of the falling away, delay the fathers decision on being satisied to remove his chosen people?

I didn't really think that the christians would embrace the end of their religious hold with open and loving arms (noone wants to give up their power once they have it). But, just like a child you tell them if you do X, and Y happens then you get Z. And that same child accomplishes X, and they see Y happening, wouldnt they start to get excited to finally get Z?

If paradise no longer exists, then whats the point anyway? I was under the impression that is what heaven was... paradise. A reward for all those who believed.

This statement of your perplexes me. I am a Christian and I don't feel like I have a "religious hold" over anyone. My faith is personal, between me and my Savior, Jesus Christ. HE empowers me to live my daily (personal/private) life with peace and spiritual fortitude, no matter what problems the day may throw in my path. I don't demand that anyone believe the way that I do. However, if another person should observe my personal faith in action, and ask me about it, I definitely would tell them about Jesus, MY Savior.