Your Church is Next

[Oldgrunt]

"Like grunt said, if you read and study the Bible you won't have to ask such foolish questions. Those were the laws that governed the Jews in the Old Testament. None pertain to Christians."

So which is it? The Old Testament only pertains to Christians when it fits your own personal views?

Turkles: I thought you would offer some intelligent input into this conversation but I have been fooled. What I have said is in both the New and Old Testaments. I hope you don't think that the Old Testament doesn't have any applicability to us today. If you think not, you should definitely read the Book of Daniel and the 37th and 38th Chapters of Ezekiel. Also, please note how our laws today conform to Levitical law. I do not profess to be a Biblical scholar but I do read my Bible diligently and am able to see what the Bible classifies as sin, which eludes those who do not want to give up their beliefs that anything goes. I didn't mean for this to be a long, drawn out running gun battle but I do believe the Bible and will try to defend it when I see plain BS presented in opposition to it. I hope this resolves the problem, if not, c'est la guerre.

[BluesStringer]

"Like grunt said, if you read and study the Bible you won't have to ask such foolish questions. Those were the laws that governed the Jews in the Old Testament. None pertain to Christians."

So which is it? The Old Testament only pertains to Christians when it fits your own personal views?

Well that's an interesting tactic; hold Oldgrunt accountable for what someone else says about what he thinks.

Are you seriously coming into this thread to try to convince Christians not to believe what we believe? Why? What do you care if we believe homosexuality is a sin? Are we marching to have it outlawed, or do we simply state our beliefs, cite Scripture as its basis, and go on with our normal, unobtrusive lives? God gave us all free will. You can believe or not as you see fit, and all any of us will ever do is attempt to show you the Light. Not through coercion or force of law, but by simply telling you. You can even put your free will to work by ignoring every word we say. Instead, you try to trap us in some inconsistency uttered, not by the person you attempt to set the trap for, but by someone else who may or may not understand whatever grunt said that they were commenting on. To what end do you employ such dubious tactics?

The Old Testament wasn't made obsolete by the birth of Christ, it was clarified, added to, and prophesies were validated by His arrival. It's not an either/or proposition. What do you achieve by trying to make it such?

Blues

[Turkules77]

Well that's an interesting tactic; hold Oldgrunt accountable for what someone else says about what he thinks.

Are you seriously coming into this thread to try to convince Christians not to believe what we believe? Why? What do you care if we believe homosexuality is a sin? Are we marching to have it outlawed, or do we simply state our beliefs, cite Scripture as its basis, and go on with our normal, unobtrusive lives? God gave us all free will. You can believe or not as you see fit, and all any of us will ever do is attempt to show you the Light. Not through coercion or force of law, but by simply telling you. You can even put your free will to work by ignoring every word we say. Instead, you try to trap us in some inconsistency uttered, not by the person you attempt to set the trap for, but by someone else who may or may not understand whatever grunt said that they were commenting on. To what end do you employ such dubious tactics?

The Old Testament wasn't made obsolete by the birth of Christ, it was clarified, added to, and prophesies were validated by His arrival. It's not an either/or proposition. What do you achieve by trying to make it such?

Blues

I am also Christian. My intent is never to change anyones views. My intent is to let people live their lives the way they choose. We were all given free will, we also live in a country where we get freedom to live our lives the way we want. I refuse to sit back and let a group of people be called names like "perverts", I refuse to let a group of people get bullied and I refuse to let a group of people get shunned because they choose to love differently than the rest of us do.

I realize we also get freedom of speech, so you are allowed to spew your hatred and bigotry, but I would like to let it be known that there are people here that will stand up to the bullying.

[BluesStringer]

I am also Christian. My intent is never to change anyones views. My intent is to let people live their lives the way they choose. We were all given free will, we also live in a country where we get freedom to live our lives the way we want. I refuse to sit back and let a group of people be called names like "perverts", I refuse to let a group of people get bullied and I refuse to let a group of people get shunned because they choose to love differently than the rest of us do.

I realize we also get freedom of speech, so you are allowed to spew your hatred and bigotry, but I would like to let it be known that there are people here that will stand up to the bullying.

The overwhelming majority of God-talk in this thread has been about abortion. Who gets "bullied" by that abhorrent practice? Are you equally protective of the 55 million (to date) murder victims of people with the mindset similar (or the same) to the ones you're protective of being called "perverts?"

And this notion that words alone, typed into an internet forum populated by adults, can in any way be legitimately claimed to be bullying is so much politically-correct clap-trap that I can hardly stand it. What is the opposite of "righteous indignation?" Something like, "feigned indignation" or "phony indignation" I would guess. No one's being bullied here at all. If someone believes a given act to be perverted, they're allowed to say it, whether you "stand up to it" or not. And if you're really a Christian, you know that when we proselytize as we are instructed, it is from love and a genuine wish for sinners to find salvation. Hatred and blind bigotry are themselves sins, and though we're all sinners and I have no doubt that there are Christians with hate in their hearts for which they will be held to account, I have seen nothing here that suggests any such thing of Oldgrunt or Ringo or anyone who has posted from a Christian perspective.

It's just weird that your Christian faith moves you to bear false witness against fellow Christians as you "stand up to" our belief that the Bible means what it says. I honestly don't get that.

Blues

[Ringo]

I am also Christian.

A Christian doesn't contradict the word of God.

To Every Man An Answer

[BoJack]

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.
1 Peter

[eagleeyes]

i have to laugh when folks tell me i should read the bible being i probably read and studied it more than most christians have and with much greater understanding too imo
i didn't ask those questions for my benefit but to throw out there so you can think about them if you haven't already here are some new questions not for me but for you to think about
why would anyone want to join such a deceitful cult in the first place?
unfortunately folks don't realize they don't need institutionalized religion to be a moral decent human being yet their religious dogma tells them they need their religion to be so
are they missing something within that causes them to join up in those religious ranks? a need to belong or fit in? for some it just a group therapy session to make folks feel better about themselves. folks join for many reasons mostly because they were born and bred into a religious family and taught to follow their familys traditions if you were born in the middle east you would probably be of the islamic faith.. not that there anything wrong with it but when fundies and extremists over step their bounds and try to force their sense of morality on others, bully homos or murder abortion doctors or rape and molest kids or deceive the public for their god or their other god, the almighty dollar, or would willingly kill innocent lives in the name of their god i have to draw a line with them as they are no where near the level of understanding i am spiritually speaking and in the whole of things and i choose not to argue with such folks because it won't accomplish a thing
if christians didn't contradict 'the word of god' they wouldn't have over 3,000 different christian sub cults all whom think their particular brand of religion is the only true and correct one as do folks of other faiths believe their religion is the only real and true one
i was born into a roman catholic family done the whole nine yards baptized at birth catechism communion and didn't miss a day of church as i went every sunday and holy day with my family to services which never really moved me i even went non christian synagogues and temples and ceremonial grounds to celebrate their services with them and still do on occasion with friends and family
but will i put their gods before my own oh hell no lolz i've read the qu'ran and other jewish and hindu holy and religious texts studied ancient sun, moon and mushroom cults and other pagan cults all fascinating study no doubt so i have a pretty well rounded education when it comes to world religions and their place and agendas in the greater scheme of things
believe what you will just don't use your god to disrespect women who choose to abort or bully them in the parking lots of abortion clinics like those westboro whackos do .christianity has the most evil doing diabolical history of all religious cults combined in history and i for one certainly don't want to contribute to their wolf in sheeps clothing causes or be one to help them put up fluffy fronts whilst they don't even realize what is going on behind the scenes with those so called 'leaders' out to make a buck off their flocks insecurities......
my religion is doing what is right and good for the greater good and treating others as i would myself like to be treated basically .. i have no reason to interfere with women who abort a pregnancy or homos personal relationships it's not my business nor should it be anyones elses business
again if you don't like abortion .......don't get one
if you don't like gay sex ..don't have it
but don't deny others the right to choose not to be a parent or their right to engage in homosexual relationships because your faith tells you it is sin and wrong.....

i have to go paint an apartment i'll be back later
sorry you didn't like the video i posted for your benefit
perhaps you might get something out of michael tsarion or jordan maxwells talks or watch the esoteric agenda vid just to give you an idea of my own world and religious standpoints they sum it up pretty well for the most part

''ye are the gods ye can do all i have done and more''

heheh ok gtg and remember grunt no two paths are identical i found my way as you have yours what is right for me is not right for you so be it i find it arrogant and ignorant when christians tell non christians they are 'lost' or sinners or going to hell because they don't follow a certain brand of religion and also when they have no clue as to whom they are speaking

[tcox4freedom]

....
again if you don't like abortion .......don't get one
if you don't like gay sex ..don't have it
but don't deny others the right to choose not to be a parent or their right to engage in homosexual relationships because your faith tells you it is sin and wrong.....

Again-

if you want an abortion .......you can get one (it is legal)
if you like gay sex ..have it
but don't deny others the right to choose to be a "Christian" parent or their right to engage in Biblical sound sexual relationships because your belief tells you sin is ok.....

[buddy]

What people tend to forget about homosexuality, regardless of whether or not you support gay marriage (I don't) or believe it is a sin (it is a biological issue), is that gays can get into heaven as sure as straights. The only unforgiveable sin is not accepting Jesus as your lord and savior.

[BluesStringer]

why would anyone want to join such a deceitful cult in the first place?
unfortunately folks don't realize they don't need institutionalized religion to be a moral decent human being yet their religious dogma tells them they need their religion to be so
are they missing something within that causes them to join up in those religious ranks? a need to belong or fit in?

This is as far as I read before deciding to put this tool on ignore. I'm only going to answer it because my answer will blow this tripe out of the water.

First, s/he feigns tolerance and understanding for several religions earlier, including Christianity, then refers to it as a "deceitful cult." Like Obama, the most can be discerned about a person's true character when they accidentally let the facade down. That "cult" reference is proof of a hostility towards Christianity, not tolerance or understanding of it.

His/her reference to "joining" the Christian faith while describing it as a "deceitful cult" and "institutionalized religion" betrays his/her lack of understanding about what happens when someone has that "come to Jesus moment." In my case, it happened without ever entering a church. It happened without subsequently joining a church. It happened without declaring a specific denomination, nor having any intentions to do so. It happened without a formal pastor "recruiting" me into the Faith, while certainly such would be necessary in order to validly qualify as me having joined a "cult," deceitful or otherwise.

I no more "joined" the Christian Faith than I "joined" my Earthly family. I was raised without a father, so I didn't know him at all. Could not have picked him out of a crowd if my life depended on it. Yet, I craved his love and attention, and would have opened my heart to any tiny bits he was willing to give me, though those bits never came.

Likewise, I was raised without any religious instruction. And likewise, I didn't know our Heavenly Father at all either. I could have neither recognized His influences in my life for what they were, nor recognized His servants as being genuinely concerned about my well-being when they tried to introduce me to Him. I always related the absence of my worldly father as the main thing that was missing in my life, as the thing that I craved, as the hole in my heart that revealed an empty darkness when I bothered to look into it, which wasn't very often to begin with. I had steeled my heart to being completely independent, needing no one or nothing but my own will and self-defined "code" of right and wrong to move through life. For a around 45 years, that approach worked for me. Then it didn't.

I can't put my finger on any particular event or set of circumstances that made me start looking for something besides the above-referenced "code" to fulfill myself, but the King riots in LA had something to do with it, moving to Alabama had something to do with it, 9/11, Katrina, wars, the decline of constitutional America all had something to do with it, but somewhere around '04 or '05 I started realizing that the "code" was total BS, meaningless because it was amorphous, undefined, could be changed at will (and often was), and was just a way for me to delude myself that I was a "good" and "moral" person when anything that flexible and unaccountable can never be good or moral because goodness and morality only have meaning if they are well-defined.....written in stone.

I don't believe it was a coincidence that in '05 I joined a forum that was populated by devout Christians, though I didn't know it at the time. God led me there using my love of country as the road-sign, because He saw the emptiness in my heart, and He knew that I needed someone I would trust implicitly to introduce me to Him, my one true Father. I found that someone in the person of one of the Moderators, who almost banned me because of my not respecting the rules against using vulgarity or just generally being a rude pain in their collective butt, but immediately following a PM with the threat of banning came another PM with some heartfelt spiritual advice and references to Scripture that I should check out, and an anytime, open-door offer to correspond with him anytime I was moved to do so. It wasn't immediate, but over the next couple of years I came to accept that I was not Fatherless anymore. I found peace in my heart for the first time in my life. I found purpose and most importantly, that well-defined, written in stone, code of morality that has stood the test of time, but which I avoided learning about in favor of supplanting my own BS "code" for that of the one true Father's.

I am Christian. Not because of any institution or recruitment or cultish brainwashing, but because I have had my black heart opened to receive The Light. It wasn't a "choice," it was a recognition that my Father was indeed who He said He was. To this day, I have not set foot in a church nor claimed a denomination. I seek spiritual guidance from people I trust, and that group has grown from one Moderator on an internet forum to hundreds of Christians around the world that I seek and accept guidance, advice and Biblical discourse from on a regular basis. Ringo, Oldgrunt, fstroupe and others have been added to that list of trusted guides. A piece of pretty architecture is not necessary to fully receive and learn from that guidance. Only two things are needed, and those are a wide-open, accepting, and surrendered heart, and a Bible.

Consider that "deceitful cult" and "institutionalized religion" crap blown out of the water. Back in awhile....I gotta go to my Profile Page and add to my ignore list.

Blues