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This is a discussion on Lobbyists within the Politics forums, part of the Main Category category; We just need to do away with them. The pro-gun lobbyists are going to keep telling people there are threats ...

  1. #1
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    Default Lobbyists

    We just need to do away with them.

    The pro-gun lobbyists are going to keep telling people there are threats to the second amendment, because pro-gun people wouldn't give them money if there weren't.

    The anti-gun lobbyists are going to keep telling people legal firearms cause problems and endanger lives, because anti-gun people wouldn't give them money if they didn't.

    Both groups are going to keep finding facts to support their cause. Factions in both groups are going to keep twisting the facts to support their cause. Meanwhile they are spending millions and millions of dollars to change the minds of the public and the politicians while the economy keeps circling the drain.

    We'll never really know how many genuine threats there are to gun rights or how many problems are really caused by guns until we get rid of the people that just want to further line their own pockets.

    Only once they are gone and no longer perverting the truth can we truly assess the problems and put it to the politicians to fix those problems in a way that prevents needless deaths and upholds our second amendment rights. And only then can we expect the politicians to do it because the only money left will be the money they get if the people let them continue to hold office.

    A democratic republic should never be about whose supporters have the most money, but who has the most supporters. This country will never be the great nation it is meant to be until we take the money out of politics and use it to fix problems instead of using it to publicly argue about what the problems really are.

    If you pick a side before then, no matter what the issue and no matter which side you choose, you are probably wrong.
    "I simply admit to not knowing that which ignorant men claim to be sure of."

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    you bring up some valid points there my friend
    money shouldn't be the factor as to determine our rights
    i wholeheartedly agree
    gun control is being able to hit your target

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    As a side note, I wrote this mostly to just put my opinion of American politics out there. I'm a middle of the road guy and find merit in both Republican and Democratic ideals. Unfortunately I too often see insidious tactics employed by both sides, and more often from these special interest groups rather than the politicians themselves. If the men and women who risk their lives serving this country don't get rich doing so, the civil servants most certainly shouldn't.

    I haven't been a member of this site for very long, but have seen many people being dismissed as free-loading-gun-hating-libertards, or whatever the creative put down of the day is. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't automatically put them in favor of your opposition. There are a million shades of purple in between blue and red, and that doesn't even count all the other colors that come in to play when you add Libertarians, mostly because I don't know what color represents the Libertarians. I want to say yellow? Nope. Just looked it up and it is gold according to Wikipedia. And I have no idea what colors you can make with red, blue, and gold, but I'm sure there's a lot of them. I haven't seen anyone speaking out for the green party, so I'll end my color analogy by just saying that in order to get the full picture you do need to have a full pallete to paint with.
    "I simply admit to not knowing that which ignorant men claim to be sure of."

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    Agree completely, but it should stop at gun or anti-gun lobbyists...ALL lobbying should be done away with
    "People should not fear their governments...governments should fear their people!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    As a side note, I wrote this mostly to just put my opinion of American politics out there. I'm a middle of the road guy and find merit in both Republican and Democratic ideals. Unfortunately I too often see insidious tactics employed by both sides, and more often from these special interest groups rather than the politicians themselves. If the men and women who risk their lives serving this country don't get rich doing so, the civil servants most certainly shouldn't.

    I haven't been a member of this site for very long, but have seen many people being dismissed as free-loading-gun-hating-libertards, or whatever the creative put down of the day is. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't automatically put them in favor of your opposition. There are a million shades of purple in between blue and red, and that doesn't even count all the other colors that come in to play when you add Libertarians, mostly because I don't know what color represents the Libertarians. I want to say yellow? Nope. Just looked it up and it is gold according to Wikipedia. And I have no idea what colors you can make with red, blue, and gold, but I'm sure there's a lot of them. I haven't seen anyone speaking out for the green party, so I'll end my color analogy by just saying that in order to get the full picture you do need to have a full pallete to paint with.
    Your words are wise and well thought out. I pretty much ignore the people that automatically lump opposing views as libocrats or whatever because they generally just repeat what others say and rarely think for themselves. I pretty much come here for news and tips. I too, am a middle of the road guy...considering myself a conservative liberal or a liberal conservative. I use black and white, rather than red and blue so, to me, the real world exists in the gray area. Thanks for the refreshing change from the norm around here.
    "People should not fear their governments...governments should fear their people!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabatam View Post
    Agree completely, but it should stop at gun or anti-gun lobbyists...ALL lobbying should be done away with
    Absolutely. I just used gun rights as an example because it seemed applicable. And I like guns. Despite what anyone says.
    "I simply admit to not knowing that which ignorant men claim to be sure of."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    [Lobbyists] We just need to do away with them.
    By what constitutional, legal means? Should Obama or Romney start shopping for a Justice who will combine with other anti-freedom-of-association Justices to form a majority at SCOTUS now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    The pro-gun lobbyists are going to keep telling people there are threats to the second amendment, because pro-gun people wouldn't give them money if there weren't.
    Wrong. They will ask for money at least in part because it takes money to oppose an overreaching government that works against The People's interests. True, some lobby groups are better at sticking by that premise than others, but there's strength in numbers, and combining with like-minded voters to form a bigger, stronger, louder bully-pulpit from which to petition your government to address your grievances is a foundational legal axiom which very few Americans are going to support you on trying to quash if they are told the truth about the effort to silence lobby groups you are embarking on.

    Besides, it's settled law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    The anti-gun lobbyists are going to keep telling people legal firearms cause problems and endanger lives, because anti-gun people wouldn't give them money if they didn't.
    See above. As wrong as anti-gun groups are, they have all the rights that pro-gun groups have. Why would you want to quash either side of a given argument's rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    Both groups are going to keep finding facts to support their cause.
    To the extent that either side sticks to facts, as long as that's what's being debated, that's fine, bring it on. Our facts (meaning "our" in the pro-gun perspective) comport much more closely with the Constitution than do the facts of the anti-gun lobby. It's called debate. Deliberative process. Scrutiny through critical thinking. We tend to use facts provided from FBI stats and/or facts gathered from objective state or regional comparisons of pro-carry vs. anti-carry jurisdictions. Very few, if any, true facts can be compiled to show that jurisdictions with more access to, and support for carrying of, guns is a predictor of higher instances of violent crime. The facts are nearly always on our side, and anti-gun groups are almost always easy to make out to be liars and fools, because they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    Factions in both groups are going to keep twisting the facts to support their cause.
    Perhaps you can offer some "twisted" facts that we, on the pro-gun side of the equation, typically use. I'm sure you'll be fair and factual about it, you being all pro-gun and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    Meanwhile they are spending millions and millions of dollars to change the minds of the public and the politicians while the economy keeps circling the drain.
    So is it an economic "problem" to which you refer, or the severe legal obstacles that exist in trying to silence lobby groups? It's an interesting theory. Millions and millions of dollars are indeed spent by the NRA and other high-profile lobby groups, but those dollars are voluntarily given to them through membership dues, merchandising, and recruiting efforts. Is there something inherently wrong with someone giving their money to a group that will combine that money with millions of others of like-minds to make a singular voice that government cannot (quite) as easily ignore?

    On the economic issue you raise, don't those millions of dollars put people to work? Not only the lobbyists, but the pilots and flight crews that get them from their home base to DC or state capitols? Do you think that an NRA convention keeps a ton of people working at the hotels and rent-a-car and tourist traps in the cities where they hold it? Somehow to me, adding to the economy doesn't equate to causing the economy to "keep circling the drain." Maybe that's just me though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    We'll never really know how many genuine threats there are to gun rights or how many problems are really caused by guns until we get rid of the people that just want to further line their own pockets.
    Right. Then heck with the lobbyists, let's shut down the local gun dealers. I'll guarantee ya they aren't there to fight for our rights, they're just "lining their pockets" by supporting the 2nd Amendment. Ammunition companies need to be quashed because they're just lining their pockets, though, in so doing, they are also supporting the 2nd Amendment just like I do every day that I exercise my rights to own and carry a gun, even though I don't give a dime to the NRA or any other lobbyist organization. But I do support their right to exist and be a lobby group. I'm at a loss to understand why anyone who ostensibly supports any civil rights, wouldn't. Should the ACLU be silenced? The Anti-Defamation League? The NAACP? The NAGS (National Association of Gals - thanks Rush!)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    Only once they are gone and no longer perverting the truth can we truly assess the problems and put it to the politicians to fix those problems in a way that prevents needless deaths and upholds our second amendment rights.
    Only when you provide legitimate citations of "perverted truth" coming out of the pro-gun side of the equation can we put it to our own powers of discernment that you have a clue about what you're claiming here. That's not to say there aren't lies and misrepresentations coming out of the pro-gun lobby, just that you have not even taken the first step to establishing that as being true, and without knowing whether you're being honest or objective in discerning whatever sources you use as credible or not, I am not going to just take your word for it that your sources (if any) are credible. Or maybe you'd like to clarify that the "perverted truth" meme that you assert is just your opinion for which you have no source material to provide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    And only then can we expect the politicians to do it because the only money left will be the money they get if the people let them continue to hold office.
    Riiiiight. Eliminating the collective voice of the most committed gun-owners in the country, those who donate money to lobby groups to increase their effectiveness, will have the added "benefit" of limiting monies that politicians get. How does that work exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    A democratic republic should never be about whose supporters have the most money, but who has the most supporters.
    Actually, the first consideration should be how the issue comports (or not) with The Constitution. If the side with best constitutional arguments wins, that's as it should be, regardless of whether or not they have the most money or the fewest supporters. That's why we are decidedly not a "democratic" anything. We are a representative republic, and one of the most significant identifying features of our system is that the majority cannot rule over the minority on any constitutional issue, being a nation of laws and not of men, and all that happy stuff. At least that's the way the country was formed, the fact that usurpers and traitors have bastardized our system beyond repair notwithstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    This country will never be the great nation it is meant to be until we take the money out of politics and use it to fix problems instead of using it to publicly argue about what the problems really are.
    Well, I'm pretty sure that "publicly arguing" without any form of retribution, and as little restrictions as possible, is precisely what the 1st Amendment was meant to protect. I'm going to ask as politely as I know how, please leave our 1st Amendment alone. We already have 536 elected politicians, and at least 5 SCOTUS Justices, who are hell-bent on repealing it via fiat rule. I'm sure there's lots of folks here who would join me in asking you to back off of that notion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    If you pick a side before then, no matter what the issue and no matter which side you choose, you are probably wrong.
    Nah....I'm going with you being wrong to have even made this post. But that is just my opinion. Your mileage may very well vary.

    Blues
    Last edited by BluesStringer; 07-02-2012 at 10:05 PM. Reason: Oops. Changed "Organization" to "Association" in "NAGS."
    I pray for peace. Peace and justice. If we can't have both, I choose justice.

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    Sorry Mark but you're not going to get the money out of lobbying anymore than you can get the money out of politics. The truth be know lobby money spent by big corporations often funds both sides of the same issue. Not uncommon for large corporation to loose track of who gets lobby money. Like was stated in another post, lobby money is paid freely by interested parties not forced out by government taxes. Taking the money away from career politicians would be a good start. Not likely to happen as they set their own wages and benefit package. What a great deal for them.
    "You can get a lot accomplished if you don't care who gets the credit" - Ronald Reagan

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    I'm not going to debate my beliefs with you guys. This is my opinion, if you don't like I simply don't care. Just because I recognize problems in the system and think there is a better way to handle it, does not mean that I have figured out the logistics and legalities required to make it happen. It is what it is, and we deal with the realities every day. But I have an ideology and have simply chosen to share some of it. I'm not requiring you to subscribe to it, and I'm certainly not going to try and convince you to. I'd ask that you do the same with your own ideologies, because I'm open-minded enough to look them over and adopt pieces of them in to my own if I agree with them. However, I do know better than to try to change the minds of ideologues by trying to pick apart individual pieces of their core belief systems.

    If you can't grasp the fact that I posted this to try and promote understanding then I simply feel sorry for your inability to accept that there are very few absolute truths in this world, let alone in the political arena. The only things we really have are our perceptions, and it is only by being open to other people's perceptions that we will ever come close to the absolute truth of anything.
    "I simply admit to not knowing that which ignorant men claim to be sure of."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    I'm not going to debate my beliefs with you guys. This is my opinion, if you don't like I simply don't care.
    Hmm.....Are you familiar with the concept of a "discussion forum?"

    To the extent that post was in reply to my reply to you, I didn't "pick apart" anything you said, I responded in conversational banter to literally everything you said. Look around. That's pretty much the whole purpose of this board.

    Probably the best way I can make myself understood here is to quote you, Mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chitty View Post
    Sorry, what was that? Because all I heard was "WWWAAAHHHHH!"
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    I pray for peace. Peace and justice. If we can't have both, I choose justice.

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