My Recent Online Gun Control Conversation

[gun runner]

The second amendment doesn't say fire arms of that period.
The right of the poeple to bear arms.
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
If I want a flint lock or a full auto. The thing is, there are some restrictions on full Auto but if I can meet them I can have them. This is what free is all about. When you loose one right all the others will follow.

[toreskha]

So then, I guess we could say that an AK47 is both? It is and it is not an assault rifle? Just as can be my AR 15, if it's converted? Where can I find a definition of actually what is or what is not an assault firearm, besides Wiki Tiki Tavi? It's not always a factual site from my understanding.

These are complex weapons and it's really not that easy to make a bright line rule that says this is and that isn't an "assault rifle". What's interesting is that a belt-fed machine gun doesn't even fall under that classification - so in political terms, it wouldn't sound as intimidating. In that case, an M16 that was modified to be belt fed (drawing a belt rather than a magazine through the lower receiver) would technically not be an assault rifle, even if it were selective fire. Neither would one that had a "fixed magazine" (ie, some sort of weird arrangement involving high-capacity clips that load into a magazine that's made into the firearm).

Another loophole (this with the NFA) is that machine guns are essentially considered to be a firearm that allows multiple rounds to be fired with a single pull of the trigger. However, some double barreled shotguns can be set to fire two rounds at the same time, but they're considered semiautomatic. The old "volley gun" design from a long time ago was a large, chassis-mounted weapon that fired a whole lot of rounds all at once, but with a semiautomatic action just by having a lot of barrels mounted together. There's also such a thing as a "double rifle". Now here's an interesting question - if the firing pins on each barrel of a volley gun could be set to fire one after the other in a wave pattern rather than all at once, but using a semiauto action, and a second pull of the trigger restarts the process on the first barrels before the last ones are done, what would it be? It would be an extremely inaccurate, semiautomatic monster gun and would probably require water cooling, but should be perfectly legal.

I'm not saying that that would be a feasible weapon - just using it to illustrate that these laws are highly arbitrary and somewhat pointless.

[tattedupboy]

You stood your ground well, without resorting to ad hominem attacks. Good job!

[Glock Fan]

These are complex weapons and it's really not that easy to make a bright line rule that says this is and that isn't an "assault rifle". What's interesting is that a belt-fed machine gun doesn't even fall under that classification - so in political terms, it wouldn't sound as intimidating. In that case, an M16 that was modified to be belt fed (drawing a belt rather than a magazine through the lower receiver) would technically not be an assault rifle, even if it were selective fire. Neither would one that had a "fixed magazine" (ie, some sort of weird arrangement involving high-capacity clips that load into a magazine that's made into the firearm).

Can you say "S.A.W."? In other words, the military "S.A.W." or "Squad Automatic Weapon" (M249) can be modified so that it will only fire using belt fed ammo. A block can be put into the magazine well to prevent the insertion of a magazine.



gf

[ronwill]

I also differ when it comes to "assault" weapons. The term is misused by the general public and sensationalized by the press. The following would be good to use in such a discussion:

200811212703 | Get the Facts on So-Called 'Assault Weapons' | / | Editorial

As for self defense how about permit holders coming to the aide of LE's in trouble. Here's a few stories found on another site and there are many more:

Herald-Tribune, Sarasota, FL Driving to work one morning, Jim Povia, of Sarasota, Florida, saw a state trooper with his service pistol drawn, confronting a trio of male suspects during a traffic stop. Povia, a right-to-carry permit holder, pulled over and grabbed his .40 cal. pistol and went to the aid of the officer. The two held the men until backup arrived. The driver of the vehicle was driving with a suspended license and a gun was found in the rear of the vehicle. The three men were charged with felony weapons possession.

The Post, Houston, TX In the finest tradition of armed citizens who take on crime in their communities, Texan Travis Neel helped save a wounded Harris County deputy sheriff's life. Witnessing the shooting by one of a trio of Houston gang members after a traffic stop just west of Houston, Neel--who was on his way to his pistol range--pulled his gun and fired, driving the officer's assailants away. An off-duty sheriff's deputy also came on the scene and joined Neel in covering the deputy, whose life was saved by his body armor. The trio was captured after a manhunt.

The Bulletin, Norwich, CT While the situation ended without incident, armed citizen Michael Acree stood ready to lend a hand when a police officer stopped a carload of unruly teenagers outside his Salem, Connecticut, home. Noticing the youths scuffling with the officer, Acree retrieved his pistol and went out onto his lawn. When the youths saw Acree and his handgun, they calmed down and the situation ended peaceably. Acree earned the appreciation both of town officials and the officer.

The Daily Commercial, Leesburg, FL Vincent McCarthy wasn't afraid to lend a hand when he noticed a police officer struggling with a man and woman at the side of the road. He tried to help subdue the man who was kicking the officer in the face. Despite McCarthy's warnings, when the man pressed his assault, the tour boat captain shot him once in the leg with a pistol he is licensed to carry and stopped the attack. Neither the officer nor McCarthy were seriously injured.

The Observer, Charlotte, NC A North Myrtle Beach, N.C., citizen was credited by the city's public safety director with possibly saving the life of Police Officer Richard Jernick. Jernick had pulled over a suspected bank robber's car after a chase, when the suspect charged the cruiser and pointed a gun at the officer, who was still behind the wheel. At that point authorities said, the robbery suspect saw that James Beach, a semi-retired electrician who had joined the pursuit, had a pistol pointed at him. Startled, the robber ran for his car, and Officer Jernick was able to shoot and wound him.

The Star-Banner, Ocala, FL When a drug-trafficking suspect fleeing a state police traffic stop ran through an Ocala, Fla., campground, he was spotted by the manager. Leonard Hicks armed himself and held the man at gunpoint for pursuing officers. An officer later commented, We wouldn't have caught the suspect if it hadn't been for him.

[ronwill]

So then, I guess we could say that an AK47 is both? It is and it is not an assault rifle? Just as can be my AR 15, if it's converted? Where can I find a definition of actually what is or what is not an assault firearm, besides Wiki Tiki Tavi? It's not always a factual site from my understanding.

The best legal definition and explanation I could find is in Webster's Dictionary as follows:

ASSAULT WEAPON

Especially notice the portion that states:

Assault weapon or "assault-style weapon" is a nebulous term used in the United States by public officials, media, and gun-control proponents as a dysphemism to refer to any firearms they consider inappropriate for civilian ownership or look particulary menacing. Congress has frequently changed and discussed changing the definition of the term.

[HK4U]

any firearms they consider inappropriate for civilian ownership or look particulary menacing.

In other words to the gun grabbers that could be any gun.

[toreskha]

Can you say "S.A.W."? In other words, the military "S.A.W." or "Squad Automatic Weapon" (M249) can be modified so that it will only fire using belt fed ammo. A block can be put into the magazine well to prevent the insertion of a magazine.



gf

Apparently there was once a guy who did modify some AR-15s to be belt-fed.

You probably wouldn't see anything else like it at the range. And according to the law, this has just ceased to be an "assault rifle". Certainly no less effective, though.

[gdcleanfun]

Sorry, I don't understand. If the AR is belt fed and is therefore capable of firing automatically, why does it cease to be an assault rifle? I would think that this would make it an assault rifle. What am I missing?

[wolfhunter]

Sorry, I don't understand. If the AR is belt fed and is therefore capable of firing automatically, why does it cease to be an assault rifle? I would think that this would make it an assault rifle. What am I missing?

No one will ever understand the brand of logic applied when regulating firearms. A belt-fed or magazine-fed full auto weapon is not an "assault weapon" because it is a "machine gun". A semi-auto rifle that LOOKS dangerous is an "assault weapon". A Ruger 10/22 with a few accessories could thus BECOME an "assault weapon".