Shipping a handgun to myself in another state

[Felix]

Thanks for your later example as well as the ATF Q&A, NavyLT. I thought Deadeye Brian had it wrong about mailing a handgun to yourself but wasn't absolutely sure since he's a gunsmith and FFL holder. I don't know why the ATF in his state of Kansas would be any different than any other state since we're talking federal regulations here.

In a few cases I've had to send handguns back to the manufacturer for rework. They merely forwarded a shipping label and I sent via UPS with no need to declare the contents. No FFL requirements at all. And the manufacturers returned the handguns directly to my house with no FFL involvement whatsoever. Except for the one time when the frame was scrapped and I got one back with a new serial number. Then we had to go through the FFL transfer routine.

Maybe there's a difference though between a gunsmith and a gun manufacturer although the lines would be pretty blurry when talking custom makers.

[NavyLCDR]

Thanks for your later example as well as the ATF Q&A, NavyLT. I thought Deadeye Brian had it wrong about mailing a handgun to yourself but wasn't absolutely sure since he's a gunsmith and FFL holder. I don't know why the ATF in his state of Kansas would be any different than any other state since we're talking federal regulations here.

Just so we make sure we are on the same page:

1. It is lawful for a person to ship a handgun to himself in another state via UPS or FEDEX. Now, one of those company's policies won't allow it, even though the law does, I just can't remember which. Their company policy also requires the handgun to go overnight.

2. It is lawful for a person to mail via USPS or ship via UPS or FEDEX a rifle to themselves in another state. Again company policies apply, but the overnight company policy only applies to handguns.

In a few cases I've had to send handguns back to the manufacturer for rework. They merely forwarded a shipping label and I sent via UPS with no need to declare the contents. No FFL requirements at all. And the manufacturers returned the handguns directly to my house with no FFL involvement whatsoever. Except for the one time when the frame was scrapped and I got one back with a new serial number. Then we had to go through the FFL transfer routine.

The bold part above did NOT require an FFL transfer. Page 3 of:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-15.pdf

Exceptions to the ATF Form 4473 Requirement:
You are not required to obtain a Form 4473 for the following sales and other transfers:

4. Transfer of a replacement firearm of the same kind and type to the person from whom a firearm was received.

This exception is codified in 27 CFR 478.124:

§ 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
or licensed dealer shall not sell or
otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently,
of any firearm to any person, other
than another licensee, unless the licensee
records the transaction on a firearms
transaction record, Form 4473: Provided,
That a firearms transaction record, Form
4473, shall not be required to record the
disposition made of a firearm delivered to
a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or
customizing when such firearm or a replacement
firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.

Maybe there's a difference though between a gunsmith and a gun manufacturer although the lines would be pretty blurry when talking custom makers.

Nope. Notice the first line of 27 CFR 478.11... it applies to all types of FFLs except for the collector (C&R license).

Many times FFLs will be overly cautious about what they think the laws are because they are afraid of being questioned about something during an audit of their records.

[Felix]

Wow, thanks again, NavyLT. Your online research skills are legendary around here and much appreciated.

So even the semi-custom 1911 manufacturer I referenced had it wrong! An unneeded FFL transfer fee incurred. I never questioned the process from someone who certainly should have known the regs. It seemed believable (to me at least) that a new serial number would require a transfer via an FFL holder in my state. I'll be smarter if there's ever a next time.

[deadeye]

Navy LT, you are just about 99.9% correct when it comes to FFL holders/Gunsmiths. When one is randomly picked for a audit we must ensure every I is dotted and evert T crossed so we do take the regs. to the extremme. Just about everything I do involves the handling of recordable parts or weapons. Fedex is the only company my wholesalers ship to me with and is the only Co. I ship with. All searilized parts must be logged in our bound books and disposistions noted: ie, sent to manf., sent to another FFL. When it comes to my gunsmithing work if I am not going to be able to return their weapon back to them in a resonable amount of time my ATF inspector advises me to record the firearm in my bound book. There is no need for a 4473 if the " original " owner comes to retreive their weapon. When shipping a handgun as a business I must use a FFL. My business knowledge versus the private sector as you have so diligently proved is lacking on my part. I just wanted to make sure nothing "bad" occured using the "business approach" when I should have been quoting the public sector regs. Thanks for broadening my narrow vision and do apologize if I created to much confusion. Brian:

[NavyLCDR]

Being a maintenance officer in the Navy, I am also subject to audits and inspections regarding aircraft maintenance records. So, believe me, I know all those rules: if it isn't documented, it didn't happen, etc. I think a major key to success, at least as far as aviation maintenance inspections go, is to have a good working relationship with the inspectors. Calling them in between inspections for advice/clarification. Asking about potential pitfalls/problem areas to look for, etc.

That way everybody's knowledge is expanded, hopefully there won't be any "oh crap" moments during the audits, and the inspectors see that you have a desire to comply.

Now.... the ATF may be a totally different animal, but that's the way it works with the aviation maintenance inspectors anyway.

[G50AE]

I think a major key to success, at least as far as aviation maintenance inspections go, is to have a good working relationship with the inspectors. Calling them in between inspections for advice/clarification. Asking about potential pitfalls/problem areas to look for, etc...

Now.... the ATF may be a totally different animal, but that's the way it works with the aviation maintenance inspectors anyway.

Yeah, the ATF has been known to deliberatly give FFL holders erronious information, and then turn around and sanction the FFL holder for not following the law. The ATF's excuse for this type of behavior is that the FFL, not the ATF, is supposed to know all the arcane and obscure regulations and follow them to the letter. It's OK for the ATF to screw up, even if they did it intentionally. It's not OK for the FFL holders to screw up, even if they acted in good faith.