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Philadelphia Open-carrier Harassed by Police with Audio

Philadelphia Open-carrier Harassed by Police with Audio

Philadelphia Open-carrier Harassed by Police with Audio

Mark Fiorino lives in Lansdale, PA and has a Pennsylvania concealed weapon permit.  While visiting his mother he was treated like a criminal by the Philadelphia Police Department merely for open carrying.  Please note that some localities in PA require a carry permit in order to open carry.  Here’s his story:

I have learned to always keep my recorder on me and recording when I am in public in Philadelphia, due to the over-zealous nature of the police, and today, I am glad I followed that rule.

As I walked down the street towards the store, I caught a glimpse of a Philadelphia Police cruiser out of the corner of my eye, traveling in the same direction I was.

A few moments later, I hear a vehicle’s transmission roughly slam into “P” very close by.

“Hey, Junior!” comes a voice from the other side of the squad car.

“Junior?!” I replied, as I turned around. I thought to myself, that’s kind of a condescending way to greet someone, isn’t it? As I turned, I prepared to ask the police officer what I could help him with.

It was then that I noticed the officer had his gun trained on my chest.

At least seven officers, 5 squad cars, and a threat of a taser later, I found out what it was like to sit in the back of a paddywagon.”

There’s 3 15 minute videos and a 4th that’s about 8 minutes so it’s quite a long listen.

 

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  • Gunteacher19143

    he better learn the rules in philly wow

    • Frosty J. Hammer

      No sh*t. Obviously this guy _wanted_ a confrontation with the cops. Note to cop-baiting troll: when an officer with a weapon in condition 0, trained on your heart, says “Get down on your knees,” the proper response is not “Excuuuse me?”

      • Wayne

        Maybe the LEO’s should learn the laws as well. What is right knowing the law and enforcing it or over reaction by the Police. Police in Philly and the politicians there think they are excluded from the State’s gun laws and

        • Anonymous

          Agreed, LEOs should be knowledgeable of handgun laws, AND the “citizen” should have had more common sense than to deliberately stir up a confrontation.
          When the situation went south (another colloquialism meaning “deteriorating”) he should have recognized that and just shut up and complied. He is lucky he was not shot.

          • Kwyorman

            I respect your answers here sir. It is easy to tell which of the posters are “Cowboy Bobs”, throwing testosterone around instead of making use of brain cells. Too many think that “Just because I’m right, I can do and say what I want”. No, we each have personal responsibility. That said, Yes, everyone in this altercation was wrong at some point. The LEO was wrong coming out of the Cruiser with his weapon trained on Mark. Low Ready was all that was warranted. Mark was wrong in challenging the officer right out of the gate. Asking why the officer has his gun on him and not complying is no way of dealing with an officer. You don’t know if he just came from a high stress incident or not. He could still be ramped up on adrenaline. Being right doesn’t mean much at your funeral. Not to give officers an excuse, especially these disrespectful ones, we need to realize that most officers deal with the worst of society, day in and day out. Most people they meet want that “majic business card” or help getting out of a ticket, or just hate police officers. Most LEOs only have other LEOs as friends for this reason. They don’t get much of a chance to step out of the suit. The good ones don’t drink or party, knowing what that does to their reaction times. So they get kind’ve excited when someone they don’t know has a gun and turns on them and starts giving them lip. It’s easy to go to condition red, they are as human as the next guy. Yes they handled it bad, but Mark sounds like it WANTED a confrontation right from the get go. We all know people like that. Just looking for an excuse to make a point, or get recognized, even if it’s for something stupid. All Mark did here was prove to a few Philadelphia Police officers that all gun carriers are jerks. How are they going to treat the next guy they see open carrying now that they have encountered Mark?

      • Hackysac05

        It didnt sound like he wanted one, but was prepared when he got one. He didnt do anything wrong here….the pigs were in the wrong. He even said several times that his license was in his wallet and the pig didnt let him pull it out. If a pig told me to get down on my knees in this situation, i would question it as well! The pig had NO right to point his weapon at this guy, there was no force from him shown, therefore nothing to provoke him.

        • Anonymous

          It is pretty obvious that you have never been an LEO, and that you do not understand what they have to deal with. They overdid the situation, but remember that a LEO has a lot of experience with BAD people, so they don’t know who could be bad.
          Not defending anybody in this situation. I’d like to kick the crap out of each and every one of them… starting with mr. mark.

      • JimSmitty

        Cop baiting by obeying the laws? {shaking my head} Cop baiting would be brandishing it/firing it/etc. Not carrying it legally.

        • Anonymous

          True. But he WAS searching for a confrontation, with either LEOs or the public, we don’t know which for sure. And he pressed it for all it was worth. He is lucky he didn’t get shot. Cops were wrong, but so was he. JMO

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tracy-Campbell/100001148534790 Tracy Campbell

        It’s only “cop baiting” because he’s exercising a right you apparently don’t value. I’m sure if this was something important to you, you’d support his tenacity. The guy’s only mistake was not complying when the officer told him to get on his knees. Otherwise, I believe he acted properly.

        If you believe the “authorities” will infringe on your rights and you call them out, how does that make you a “cop baiter”?

        • Anonymous

          It’s a “dirty debate trick” called argumentum ad hominem. If you can’t attack the man’s argument successfully, attack the man. Massad Ayoob

  • Rock4813

    Why do people hate police again?

    • H&K

      I don’t hate good police officers.. Just the bad ones like this guy…

      • Anonymous

        Hey, most cops have a sheezy streak in them. I had one write me up for a high beam headlight inoperative….. at 2pm in the afternoon on a sunny day. People say he is a really nice guy. Of course it was my fault….. it was the last day of the month.

  • Muddbog

    He didn’t do anything wrong. The LEO was wrong!

    • Anonymous

      You need to read this entire reply thread. HE was legal but HE DID A LOT WRONG. He was cruising for a bruisin, we used to say, and he got what he wanted. His 15 minutes of fame. He is damn lucky he is alive.

      • H&K

        The only one I heard cruising was the cop..

        • Anonymous

          That’s a colloquialism from the past. Look it up.

  • Tim

    This is a mentally deranged Opey-Bob that desperately needs massive disciplinary action! Since when did being a cop make you god?

  • Gunguy101

    Put a badge on an asshole and you call them Police. What a joke, I hope all of them lose their job and get sued.

  • Anonymous12345

    This is un-believable. And here I was, brought up to believe cops are out there to respect and protect innocent civilians. These cops from PA acted like a bunch of punks, they should be the ones arrested

    • Anonymous

      That is a common affliction among LEOs everywhere in every venue.

  • Pissed_Off_In_Jersey

    Welcome to the United Police States of Amerika….you have rights when FUCKING say you have rights….

    • Anonymous

      Isn’t it interesting that NOBODY ever hears somebody bitching about their rights to free and unrestricted travel which are being limited by being required to have a drivers’ license?

  • Mjd

    Yeah this is bad police work no doubt… but why carry open if he has a license? The law may be on his side, but honestly he was asking for trouble strolling around with a sidearm

    • Wayne

      Philly is the only place in PA you need a license to carry openly. There is no law against it in PA except for a city of the first class which Philly is considered

  • Wegs

    Open carry is asking for trouble. Right or wrong. What part of this calculus do people not understand? Wear a friggin’ sweatshirt and make everyone’s life easier.

    • ObamaTard

      Yet another professor like response to someone’s rights being trampled.
      No wonder the US is going down the tubes.
      We can thank ‘Wegs’ just like you.

      • Anonymous

        Certainly it is about our rights. But it is also about handling things in the proper manner, and not escalating a deteriorating situation to the point of verbal abuse and physical confrontation. Had he gotten shot, maybe everybody would be happier about this.

    • JimSmitty

      That’s the problem. It shouldn’t be asking for trouble. Don’t you get it?

      • sert01

        Where were these so called “peace officers” when the two black panther party a-holes were threatening voters outside a voting place during the last election in the “City of Brotherly Love” ?? Mark was completely within his rights to open carry. The law is the law and a police officers job is to know the law. I’m expected to know everything about my job. That is the line of profession that they chose and what they get paid for. No excuse whatsoever either for the language used by any of the officers involved. Any way at all we can sell or just give Filthydelphia to New Jersey??

        • Anonymous

          red herring

          • Sert01

            Red herring? Sure am glad ole George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and the rest of our founding fathers had some balls and didn’t have the attitude that some on here have that the “powers that be” are ALWAYS right. That to ever question authority (however misguided and incorrect) is always wrong. Sure, Mark could have been manhandled at best and at worst -shot. Maybe he was a little “too prepared” with his recorder. So what? Is that illegal now too? Sure seems to me that the LEO’s involved calmed down drastically once they realized they were being taped. I hate to think of what would have happened if he hadn’t had everything on tape to cover his side of it. I’ve got many LEO friends and I know many that I wouldn’t trust as far as I could throw them and their patrol car! My last and final question to all the naysayers is this- was he legally open carrying or not? According to the LAWS of Pennsylvania and Philadelphia, yes he was. Smart or not, he had THE RIGHT!! And having and exercising OUR rights is what this country was founded on. Sert01 (and that’s all I have to say about that!!)

          • Anonymous

            “Certainly it is about our rights. But it is also about handling things in the proper manner, and not escalating a deteriorating situation to the point of verbal abuse and physical confrontation. Had he gotten shot, maybe everybody would be happier about this.”

            10 hrs ago in response to ObamaTard”

          • Ccpoa-cim

            The Sgt. Was wrong in the end. However even if there is an oc law on the books, I bet none of the officers knew that. This is more likely the first time in there carriers they have seen someone walking down the street in a major city with a gun on there hip. The kid provoked this, its Philly not tombstone Arizona.

    • Imroadie

      “A black guy walking through an all white neighborhood is just asking for trouble. What part of this calculus do people not understand? Stay in your own neighborhood and make everyone’s life easier.”

      Get it? A person shouldn’t have to HIDE something that is their RIGHT.

  • Anonymous

    -5 to the OP

    I grew up in Bucks and went to Temple U. for college and the OP’s initial reply to the cop of “Junior??” set the tone for a conflict – he should know better.

    Philly cops are, on average, asshats. There are good ones but they live in the Northeast as close to Bensalem as they can and have no illusions about Rizzo still being in office.

    The *right* answer should have been, “How can I help you, officer?” and the let the Rizzo’s Raiders-wanna be (or relic) run his own mouth into the ground.

    There are very clear rules about cooperating with police and NOT responding with an attitude right off the bat is #1.

    • JimSmitty

      Tell me you would ask a cop that is immediately pointing a gun at you “How can I help you?” Please. Plus, I didn’t hear an attitude other than him being annoyed at being called Junior.

      • Anonymous

        I’ve been downrange at various gates with very nervous 18 y/o’s armed with M-4s and M249’s pointed at me; cops with pistols are the least of my issues.

        Some folks you just don’t get attitudes with when they don’t know you.

        “Hello Officer, how can I help you?’ – keeps everyone alive and safe and out of trouble.

        • Anonymous

          ATTITUDE is what causes the problem. From both sides of the confrontation. Expecting trouble, Mr. Mark should have had enough sense to restrain himself when he was confronted by THE MAN.

  • http://twitter.com/ramcvey Richard McVey

    And they wonder why people call them “PIGS”. What a load of crap. Power hungry bullies, thats all they are. My sister worked for dispatch and arrogant comments she would regularly make… Its easy to have NO RESPECT for them.

  • Sw29-2

    The police in my opinion used far more force than necessary with this person and acted extremely unprofessional especially with the profanity they used towards this person that was not being directed at them, HOWEVER, it never ceases to amaze me how people bring trouble on themselves insisting on open carrying. I am as pro 2nd amendment as anyone but why, why subject yourself potentially to this kind of treatment-especially in Philadelphia!

    • Rusty

      I live in Iowa and Iowa is an open carry state. Even though it is an open carry state you are stating I should conceal to avoid being harrased by law officials. It is my right to carry openly. Should I be harrased for voting for public officials or anyone else ? That’s one of our rights also. I have a drivers license, should I be harrased for driving a car ?
      I can understand a police officier asking me to see my permit, and I will happy to produce it, but what this guy went though is way out of line. Anyone who thinks this officier of the law acted professionaly is also out of line.

      • pastor t

        Hey Rusty I live in IA and I just got my permit to carry can you give me a link to go to to see for myself the right to open carry you mentioned?

      • Anonymous

        Open carry in most of Iowa is not really comparable to open carry in schitzside Philly.

  • Stratus41298

    He could’ve been more compliant. Its regrettable what happened but the officer doesn’t know whether he is telling the truth or not. Its your job as a citizen to obey the officer until everything is safe. That being said, those were some of the rudest cops I’ve ever heard. Why so angry?? They got “their man” without any problems.

    • Stepcof

      To many people in authority with uncontrollable emotional problems. I see it every day. But to allow them to carry a badge and a gun? Scary!!

  • Bradtheskiking

    This is not very responsible behavior on the the suspects part at all. Sometimes its better to be wrong than DEAD right. He could have got himself killed and then it would not have mattered whether or not he had the right to carry.
    If he would have shut up and listened he would have had a lot better encounter.
    I believe in concealed carry and do so alot, but if a cop tells me to do something be quiet and put my hands up I’m going to do it.

    • Jdmelm3

      YOU ARE ENTIRELY CORRECT. hE MADE THE REST OF US SUSPECT!!

    • Mike2dotcom

      Nonsense

  • Hackysac05

    Isn’t PA an Open Carry state???

  • Wayne

    In PA the law is that to carry openly in a City of the First Class (determined by size as best I could figure out and Philly is the only one) you need the LTCW better known as a Carry permit. While he was in completely compliance with the law many PS LEOs don’t know the law and often are actively encouraged to harass legal gun owners and those with the right to carry both openly and concealed. I used to live in Philly when it was virtually impossible to get a carry permit. Now it is just hard. I now live in Lancaster, PA. No suck problem getting a permit. But in a phone conversation with mayor Grey of Lancaster he told me that if his police department sees me open carrying they will arrest me no matter what the law says

    • Jdmelm3

      Wouldn’t that be illegal with recourse in court?

      • Wayne

        Yes but politicians don’t care. Philly has lot every time in court and they still try it.

        • Anonymous

          Yes and it might cost you several thousand to be judged not-guilty.

  • Keith

    The logic here is that a licensed person with an open carry could be threat to the cop, but having the gun hidden would make the cop safe?

    • Gyro_cfi

      Thank you Keith for your sanity in the face of the rabid anti-open carry folks.

  • Anonymous

    I hope they fry these cops. Typical knee-jerk reaction to guns by trained idiots. I can’t believe these cops can get away with not even knowing the laws and they expect us to know and understand all the laws and abide by them.

  • Anonymous

    I think he was WRONG in Open Carrying. Every Police Officer has the right to go Home Alive & Well after work. I think with him Open Carrying and with a Hidden Recorder he was Looking for a Confrontation with the Police to make his point. In a Big City you are going to have some “John Q. Public” get Nervous when they see someone walking the Streets when Open Carrying especially in Today’s World.
    That’s exactly WHY we CARRY Today’s World is a Scarry Place with the Crazies out there..
    Yes we have the RIGHT to Carry for Self Defense BUT we also have the Responsibility NOT to ALARM the Public when doing so.
    I DO NOT believe that Open Carry is either Prudent or Advisable all it does is Advertise to the Criminal Element that you are the FIRST TARGET TO TAKE OUT.
    I believe that the Elememt of “SURPRIZE” when Concealed Carrying is More of a Deterent to the Criminal. This way they have to be Warry of EVERYONE SURPRIZING them with a Weapon when Committing their Crimes.

    • Mike2dotcom

      open carry is legal…period that is the issue the rest is just your opinion, I believe one should be able to do either, there are plus and minuses to both sides

      • Anonymous

        Your Right that that is “Just my Opinion”…. AND “THAT’S ALL THAT
        COUNTS”.

        It’s IDIOTS like him and YOU that HURT the Rights that we
        enjoy…………

        • sloopyinca

          Are you a cop? I wouldn’t be surprised, based on your desire to subjugate Constitutional Rights for the safety of people who volunteer to be policemen and -women.

          Those cops volunteered to uphold the laws, not bully people because the current laws make them “uncomfortable.” Don’t like the job? Think it’s too dangerous? Then quit. Don’t try to limit our rights to make yourself safer. Find another job that you are qualified for and feel safe at. A security job at Wal-Mart ought to be right in your wheelhouse based on your above mastery of the English language.

  • Ted

    Kind of hard to uphold the law when you don’t know the law….

    • Guest123

      No kiddin’. Who made him a police officer?

      I would sue, sue, sue, and then sue some more. Words couldn’t describe how pissed I would be. I would own Philadelphia and rename it after myself and then set it on fire and then piss on it. Wipe it off the map, ’cause it’s only full of filth.

      • Anonymous

        I don’t even know you, but I will bet that if there weren’t the smell of money at the end, YOU would never had said the word SUE. You Sir, are not interested in human rights, you are interested in grandure and money.

        • Franmar48

          If we don’t hit them where it hurts, they will never change. And, unfortunately, lawsuits are the best way to get their attention. You might also file a Commercial Lein against the Officer’s property, and watch as he digs out from under it. Past time to fight back if you value your God-given rights. Liberal mamby-pamby pandering does not work.

          • Anonymous

            So the taxpayers forking out money to pay off the bad officers’ conduct is an improvement for the public. Interesting concept.

            How would destroying the LEOs life improve OUR 2nd RIGHT to open carry in a crime ridden city?

            I’m not a liberal at all, just wondering how the general trend of this entire thread about crucifying the LEOs furthers our 2nd amendment rights. Placing fear into the hearts of the city government, or what?

          • Keithw75

            Yes. The city and the officers who uphold the laws should be terrified of violating people rights. That supersedes their safety. They decided to put their lives at risk when they signed on for the job.

          • Ddjrfd

            So, because they “signed up for the job” they give up the right to self defense? If the type of job you take makes you a lesser human being, and you are therefore supposed to forfeit your life to protect Keithw75’s rights?You sir are wrong headed! If this were logical who would sign up for the job?

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Troy-Lindsey/545123828 Troy Lindsey

            You seriously have no clue what you are talking about do you? How would they be “giving up” their right to self defense? No one is taking their weapons away from them and no one is forcing them to do the job. You don’t apply for a job were you have to carry a gun on you and then think that everyone else should have to give up theirs so you can be a little bit “safer.” If they don’t like that they HAVE to allow people their rights then they can quite the damn job. YOU sir, are the one that is wrong in the head.

          • Anon

            the individual and dept should be educated and disciplined, THAT would help our 2nd

          • Ryan Santos

            Totally wrong my Friend, the only one you Hurt, is We the People, that pays the bills.  People with that kind of Power assigned to them, should go through a very strict evaluation.  The Job attracts to many loonies and Nut jobs with what we call the Wyatt Earp syndrome, just look at Postal workers,TSA workers,CBP workers, USDA workers, FDA workers, you think those Dim Wits know that they work for We The People, government makes no moeny anywhere to cover their salaries, except by stealing from We the People…Blessed Be,  Ryan Santos,  American

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZCDE5NFDXVJZ5LBG46N2TUACZY Robert

            I have a lot of respect for cops and firemen and miltary, especially as my son is 2 of 3. Here in Oregon, the 2 cops I’ve been stopped by were good wit hmy concealed carry as long as I told them from the get go and didn’t move suddenly or threateningly. Most cops, at least here in the Northwest, are 2nd Amendment supporters, though I know there are some sketchy ones in the Portland area and have been in Seattle too. I’ve only done open carry a couple of times, aside from up in the mountains, and that was in my car on a couple of long trips, so never had a confrontation in that way. I do have to take exception with your ideas on government employees. As a former postal employee, I resent what you said. You need to think about this. People in even public jobs represent a cross section of Americans, whether for better or worse, it’s what it is. When you have a group of hundreds of thousands of people in the same profession, you’re bound to have some flakes, it’s unavoidable, there are just too many to catch all the crazies, but most of us are as normal as the next person. Most cops are good cops, unfortunately, there seem to be places like NYC and Philly, and as I said, Portland and Seattle out here, that have no business being cops, more than in other places. Were I a cop, if I saw a person with a holstered weapon, I would be more likely to think better of that person than some flakey looking person with a gun tucked in their belt. And regardless, even if he felt like he was in danger, he could unholster his weapon without pointing it a person, until he determined what was going on. And it’s pretty sad that these cops don’t know what they are talking about, and if it takes a lawsuit to bring it all out in the open, and compensate him for his distress, so be it. Think of all the publicity the case would engender and put it out there in front of the world, where it should be. maybe it will help get more qualified officers hired, and MAYBE, put mayors and political appointee chiefs and others on notice that this kind of behavior isn’t acceptable.

        • Anon

          unfortunately, the only legal remedy against gov abuse is $$$, not criminal. just how it is, not how it should be

    • Gunteacher19143

      the key is know the law read read read

  • Mmmmtoasted

    If you want to educate the police on the law, there’s a better way to do it.
    Another thing, we don’t know what you look like or what you were doing. You could look like a bad-ass with an attitude. (Doubt it.) You may have been peaking in car windows and testing the lock. We can only take your word for it.

  • Clay

    I think the Cops were wrong BUT….. Why did the guy have a recorder unless he was looking for trouble, And why not just get down and then get everything straightened out later, Why risk getting shot. If you get accused of speeding and you didn’t speed do you record it and drive away and refuse to stop and take the ticket?

    If the guy carrying the gun was in the right he could have taken it up later in court or with the cops supervisor, Cops have a tough job they are getting shot at and killed at a pretty alarming rate
    I kind of have to side with the cop and who knows maybe that city has a amendment to the carry laws and they do not allow open carry in there city..

    And as far as he (the cop) knows this guy could be a nut that was going around getting ready to shoot someone, I would have gotten on the ground and then after the dust settled (no pun intended) and then explained to the cop about the law or showed him the regulation that gave the wearer the right to open carry,

    As for the cop maybe he may have taken it to far but he has a tough job and the way the nuts are now a days I might have done the same just watch the news or a few episodes of cops and you may think about it differntly…. I just think the whole could have been handled differently on both sides..

    ..Just my opinion (and no I’m not a cop)…

    • LargeSarge

      Why have a recording device? Did you listen to the recording? I always carry a recording device (open or concealed carry) because otherwise it’s my word against several overzealous, power hungry cops. Who do you think the courts wil believe?

    • professor

      why did he have a recorder unless he was looking for trouble? Why have a gun unless you are looking for trouble? He wisely carried a recorder because cops everywhere have proven time after time they have no regard for the law except however they can twist it in their favor. They have a tough job? They signed up for it, they should be prepared for however tough it gets AND know the laws they are supposed to be upholding; NOT being incompetent jerks.

  • Tampa Carrying

    Yeah, the guy carrying was clearly in the wrong. Police are not robots and they are going to make mistakes. When a policeman says “on your knees” you may not like it and it may be demeaning but he has the legal right to do that based on his belief or probable cause and imminent danger (even if he later turns out to be wrong). If it turns out to be a case of false arrest we have a court system for that, but we cannot have a world where we each decide for ourselves what is legal. Every time in my life I have been detained by police for some misunderstanding they have always been polite and apologized when the error was discovered.

    • Jdmelm3

      AGREE-HE WAS LOOKING FOR TEOUBLE AND WAS OBSTINATE!!

  • Zeusr1

    With out a doubt the guy wanted a confrontation, he purposely provoked the police by open carrying what people don’t realize is that even with a permit when carrying open you can still be arrested for inciting a riot . that being said the frustration the cops expressed was only after the guy blatantly refused to cooperate as a concealed permit carrier I have been in this position and understand how the cops felt here .Also the guy really needs to read the back of his permit carrying is a privilege and can be revoked if abused he definitely abused

    • JDMELM3

      AGREE

  • Vern Stonecipher

    First. I have had a CC permit 10 + years and carry all the tme., Second, were the cops overzealous, overbearing, obnoxious? Yes, definitely. This is a prime example of why I am against open carry, especially in an urban, heavily populated area. Might be fine in Montana. Not smart in Philly. The cop was certainly not accustomed to seeing someone carry openly. Mark drew attention to himself by doing so. Would a typical ( if there is such) cop respond in a similar manner in Philly or else where. Probably. Because you have the right to do something doesn’t make it smart to do it. Mark drew the cops attention and the attention of everyone he passed, good guys and bad guys. Cops are trained in handgun retention. Several times a year some cop is shot with his own gun lost in a scuffle or attempted arrest. Has Mark had training in handgun retention? If he insistes in carrying openly he better get some training I am just surprised one of these badge heavy cops did not take the recorder, stomp it in the ground and beat the s..t of Mark. He is lucky.
    Stoney in Okla.

    • Anonymous

      I’m in favor of open carry everywhere for the same reason you oppose it, because it is uncommon and therefore worrisome in many places. If it were more common, it would just be The Way It Is and people, especially cops wouldn’t be so quick to overreact.

  • Superiormirage

    Here are my thoughts on the matter: My father was a police officer for 30 years before retiring. As his son, I worried about him coming home every time we heard about a police shootout in my home city. I can understand my the officer drew his weapon and pointed it at the gentleman. That was for his safety so he could go home to his family.

    That being said, I believe the officer was way out of line when he was offered proof of a permit to carry and refused it. There was no need for that incident to escalate to the level it did. Obviously the officer did not know Philadelphia law and he was proved wrong by the end of the clip.

    • wildcatkit52

      I disagree… Had the open carrier been showing any signs of aggression or dangerous behavior it would have been sufficient for the officer to draw a weapon. He set the wrong tone from the beginning do to his above the law attitude.

      That being said, the OC was baiting them. He should have shut his mouth but he wanted a confrontation. They where both wrong. The cops more so.

      What the tape shows is the true behavior of police officers. Though the OC wasn’t fully complying he DID offer to show his ID and permit AND explain. The cop decided NOT to listen at all and labeled the man as trouble though he gave no initial issues to the officer but to explain while being nonthreatening. He kept his hands up and offered what he should have offered.

      When backup arrived they assaulted him as he stood in compliance. He was polite through the event while being threatened with death by the officer.

      I’d have done things differently but his tape shows that cops are in a position to mold the law as they see fit. This would not be the case if everyone was allowed to open carry and defend themselves. The cop would have passed him by without a glance and never been in a situation in which he might not have made it home to his family. He ALSO could have done the same if he KNEW THE LAWS HE IS PAID TO UPHOLD AND ENFORCE!

    • Anonymous

      The whole problem started from…… what?……… Blatant open carry with his recorder on= looking for a confrontation.

      • Bones1389

        The whole problem started from….what?…..blatant public free speech, exercising of one’s religion, peaceable assembly, filing grievance with the government, and selling newspapers on the street corner.

        Really? The exercising of rights is never the start of a problem. But it did show people that a problem exists with police officers not knowing or respecting the law.

      • H&K

        The whole problem started from…… what?……… Blatant cop did not know the laws!!!

      • Mailman

        Walking down the street exercising his rights and also protecting himself by recording an interaction between himself and some PUBLIC SERVANTS in public. There is no expectation of privacy when in public. I am glad he was able to get it all on tape. Now I hope he can get the City of Philadelphia to compensate him for violating his GOD-GIVEN right of self protection.

  • Clay

    P.S. I don’t think this is helps the fight to make other states open carry states, To me this only gives ammunition to the other side to say …See this is why we do not want or need citizens armed, because they get the gun and they think the law does not apply to them they think they are cops and they wont listen to law officers..And a million other arguments for the other side…

    • Wayne

      Sorry but wrong. This guy followed the law. from experiences and living in Philly I know the cops didn’t. Philly over the years has constantly tried to exclude itself from the State’s gun laws. They have consistently been stopped in every court. It is an unwritten policy it seems amongst Philly police that no one but them should have guns. It is the only place in PA where you have to have a face to face interview before they even consider issuing a permit. That alone is against sate law.

    • JDMELM3

      AGREE-POOR JUDGEMENT ON THE PART OF THE CITIZEN!!

      • Anonymous

        AMEN AMEN AMEN

    • LargeSarge

      A right not exercised is a right lost.

  • Ny152joe

    This man did nothing wrong. It sounded like this cop was a liberal and wanted to supress the rights of the citizens. This cop should have his badge taken away, he doesn’t respect the law he demands respect without earning it.

    • Anonymous

      A liberal? No kidding? Really? Maybe he had a fight with his wife and just wanted to rock and roll.

      • Jethrotrc

        and maybe you dont know what happen either, were you one of the LEO’s here since your so defensive of them

        • Anonymous

          I apologize Sir. Of course, LEOs are not humans, they are, what is that term, pigs.

  • http://twitter.com/cawpin cawpin

    You better sue the hell out of the Philadelphia PD for this. That is the only correct course of action. I support the police FULLY ALL THE TIME but they must also follow the law.

    It was illegal for them to even detain you after you said you had a carry permit and offered to show it to them.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tracy-Campbell/100001148534790 Tracy Campbell

    It’s interesting that these officers were SO certain this guy was breaking the law that they had no problem pointing a gun at him, cursing him, making him get on the ground, and essentially treating him like a lowlife criminal, THEN they get on the radio asking if there’s open carry in Philadelphia. CLASSIC!!!

  • Cerberus

    I have a couple of observations.

    (1) Rights go away if we don’t exercise them. While a legitimate point can be made that Mark was flirting with disaster by legally carrying openly, he was acting properly, and prudently [by carrying the recorder]. The fact that he had the recorder on suggests he already knew the risk he was taking. I don’t interpret this as him “looking for a confrontation” but that he recognized that the risk was there. If more licensed folks carried openly [against the preferences of police] cops would eventually learn they weren’t automatic grounds for arrest.

    (2) Had he not had that recording device running I doubt things would have turned out even as well for him as they did. Only by having a record of exactly what transpired did the facts stay as they were and not end up “edited for prosecution.” Even so the facts as the officer experienced and reported them differed from those recorded showing how nearly useless even an honest recitation of memory can be.

    (3) I’m also almost surprised that the recorder didn’t “disappear” during his confinement in the paddy wagon. The fact that it didn’t suggests that the officers were merely wrongheaded in their beliefs instead of actually evil. They are exposed to so many bad things on a daily basis that it’s easy to see how they automatically assume the worst.

    (4) Yes, police are trained to expect the worst case scenario and to act accordingly–that’s as it should be. That said, as soon as Mark offered to show Sergeant XX his permit the cop should have understood that potentially the guy was not a criminal. The cop never [repeat NEVER] deescalated. Mark even recited the policy number he needed to check to know that he was in the right, but the cop already knew HIS policy, and that was all that mattered.

    (5) It might have been a bit simpler had Mark carried a printed copy of that policy on his person. I carry copies of our Concealed Carry law in my truck since a sheriff in an adjoining county I sometimes have to be in responded to the initial passage of the law by stating “That may be the law in the rest of MO, but in my county you can’t carry concealed.” It’s a bit tougher to insist on their personal policy when they’re staring at the actual text of state law.

  • cabopc

    If the law says he can open carry then he has the right to open carry and he should be able to do so free of harassment. Those of you who are suggesting that he instead carry concealed are missing the point. The police overreacted and are ignorant of the law. That being said, this guy probably should have been a little more compliant though because he could have been shot. He’s got some guts though. Hopefully the cops involved at least learned something about the law.

    • Anonymous

      GUTS????? The kindest thing I can say is that he is a stupid XXXX. See my posts above.

      • Poncho

        listen again He Was Compliant what more do you want…oh yeah, I bet I know

        • Anonymous

          Pancho, with all due respect Sir… Avoidance of a confrontation is the most important= either with a criminal or a LEO. It is much better to avoid the battle and to live to fight another day. Forcing any confrontation is risky business.

  • Bluesman

    So here is the problem I see with this incident; Yes the police were “overzealous” and blew this way out of proportion however I couldn’t believe my ears at how argumentive Mark was with a bunch of guns pointed at his chest! If this same thing happened to me I would have been a little easier to get along with until the guns were put away. I agree that ‘some’ police officers are pains in the a– and have ‘hair trigger personalities’ which is why I would have had the argument after everybody holstered their weapons. I am fully in agreement with our rights to carry lawfully but will tread lightly while someone has the drop on me.

    • Anonymous

      Amen. I did get arrested once on a bogus gun charge “tell it to the judge” (found innocent in court cost me 2 grand anyway) and I promise you, I did not give them any shirt.

  • Sj4640

    upset with police. should have listen to person about license to carry. the police could have avoidec this kind of situation. the guy as far as i can see w3as totally in the wright from the beginning.

  • Wiz33064

    Hiel

  • Wiz33064

    WOW!!! Is this for real? I guess this man thought his right to carry openly was worth almost dieing for! He could of very easily been shot by that officer, but he stood up for his 2nd amendment right. I am tired of being bullied by the police and their view of the law. I thought it was a cops job to know the laws of the land they protect. Good for you on educating some of Philadelphia’s finest. Must be a lot of them that got PUNKED in school and now have a badge and think they are GOD. Freaking Punks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • coopdog

    well, being a former LEO, Marine retired, and homeland security, a few things come to mind. 1. common curtesy? having been spoken to like this is beyond unprofessional. to get out of your car with your weapon pointed at the law abiding citizen??? no pun intended…jumping the gun alittle bit r we? 2. 53 minutes to clear the situation??? jeez. in the academy if we took more than 15 mins on a felony stop, you were counseled. 3. he prevented the person from recording the situation stating it was against the law. no, it’s not. they do it with car cameras. 5 police cars and officers for a person with a gun? also on the 53 minutes. does no one within the police department KNOW the statutes??? when I was a deputy, we carried a copy of the statutes with us and most r online now. 53 minutes!!!! I hope he sues and wins and the officer is at least suspendede WITHOUT pay. sorry offricer, you were wrong. He kept saying “I don’t know you” duh? that give him the right to draw down on you?? I also love how the officer was acuesing him of doing it on purpose. Yeah; and my department taught me to call people junior. how about “excuse me sir,”. anyway. I hope he wins.

    • Wayne

      Having lived in Philly most of my life this is their exact behavior and attitude.

      • tarawa1943

        I do know the East Coast in general can be a hard place to live like PA, NJ, MD, NY..etc. Is that a reason for the behavior that approaches perverted? That behavior, if not checked, will drive out all the good people to other states more friendly, eventually.

      • GUNTEACHER19143

        WAYNE FUNNY U SAY THAT I HAVE LIVE IN NY,NJ,MD PA,DC BEEN STOP WITH FIREARMS ON ME AND IN MY VEHICLE AND ONLY IN NY CITY I SPENT 22 HOURS IN JAIL FOR THEM TO HAVE TO BEG ME NOT TO SUE THEM I THINK A HOT HEAD WILL MAKE THE PROBLEM SO BAD WHEN U KNOW YOUR LAWS I MEAN KNOW THEM NOT THINK U DO

    • Vanns40

      As retired LEO I completely agree with you. There is NOTHING wrong with open carry and these LEO’s are a disgrace to the badge and uniform.

    • Anonymous

      Hey, I had 7 (seven) troopers with hands on guns surrrounding me at a daytime routine traffic stop at mile marker 3, I-74 in west Indiana. My violation= driving a car with legal tinted windows and an out of state license plate. Hard lining the 4th amendment I finally drove away in 45 minutes, and they were not happy troopers. It was not fun.

      • tarawa1943

        Did anyone listen to the officer? The perverted language, it is a sure sign he is not trained in ANYTHING except gestapo tactics. There was not gunfight because that is the condition the officer displayed. Being scared is not justification for that kind of behavior for the officer. Conversely, the citizen was not wise although legal, he may have deserved what he tried to provoke. There are other states that allow OC, without a permit. I have lived there and the officers get nervous but even the young warrior 1st responders remain calm and professional. I pray for and support Police Officers but regardless of the physical abuse the verbal is enough to send any decent human in shock.
        You can get all deep on this but it is sadly a sign of the times that needs more reforming. The men+ladies in uniform need our prayers as the country is degenerating to a level where a little bit of stress causes the Officer to draw down on a Legal OC citizen? I hope I am making the right point here and understandable. The recording issue is something I have considered, as I have been on the nasty end of a citizen and officer confrontation, and it was legal.

        • GUNTEACHER19143

          SOME HUMAN DONT KNOW HOW TO TALK TO PEOPLE HOW DID THEY GET A PUBLIC SERVICE JOB IN THE FIRST PLACE

  • Safeguntraining

    Prime example of why I am against open carry as well. It appears to me that this guy was looking for a confrontation and that is exactly what he got. However, it’s obvious these officers acted very unprofessional in their treatment of this person.

    On a side note, I don’t know the law in PA but in Florida it is illegal to record without consent.

    • Anonymous

      Agree. Most places it is legal to record any situation if ONE of the persons recorded is aware of the recording.

  • Busdown3

    I worked with the Florida Dept. of Corrections for 30 years. After dealing with inmates for this length of time I do understand the concern of the police officer. I feel it would have been better for Mr. Fiorino to have followed the officers demands and then file a complaint later.

  • Scott

    As a former police officer I am appalled at the lack of professionalism on the part of these police officers. That being said, I don’t think the time to argue the law is while a police officer has his weapon trained on your chest. If you listen closely at around minute 8 on the part one you can hear the sergeant trying to justify the stop to someone. All in all, this just goes to show you what happens when cops think that they should be the only ones trusted to carry, and how easily it could have gone wrong.

  • Zue

    Starting wiht Jr. is the unprofessionalism. It is not in ones best interest to argue with a Police officer’s directions. Comply and protest later. The police might have been looking for a suspect who matches your description. Arguing about the law is for calm conversation, not when weapons are backing an officer’s order. There are tens of thousands of laws and many officers, eventually you may encounter one who shall detain first and question later.

    • JimSmitty

      But the police expect every citizen to know all the laws. “Ignorance of the law is no excuse” goes both ways!!

    • Anonymous

      AH, a rational thinker. You are correct. Maybe they were looking for a suspect.
      Thanks for your comment.

      • ObamaTard

        Are you a moderator now? LOL

        • Anonymous

          ROFLMAO, thanks libtard

  • Zue

    Calvin is there any follow up on this incident? It should not take to long to look up a city ordinance if you gave the number to the police. Did the Police Department admit that it is lawful to carry within Philly with a permit? I doubt if the department would apologize although it would be in order.

    • Robthurmond

      Thought police officers were trained in how to defuse a situation-the language and attitude that seargent adopted in this situation was enough to make any normal person become combative who was not already-hats off to the dude for keeping his cool. That police officer should be fired-its obvious with his attitude that he is a risk to people on the streets.

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  • Anonymous

    It sounded as though they at first took the recorder away from Mark along with his firearm because the recording more loudly records officers talking and radio traffic than the sounds of Mark’s voice in the background. I know the arresting officer was not pleased that the recorder was running, and we can only assume that to be because without it, the *official* version of what happened was going to be *whatever the officer said* whereas with the recorder going we’d be stuck with objective reality instead. Interesting how Cop Dashcams are perfectly OK, but citizen recording to clear up any discrepancies as to what may have happened would NOT be OK, particularly with the long history of police abusing their authority under color of law.

    I do have a problem with it being interpreted as “acting provocatively” for Mark to be acting in a legal fashion by carrying openly. It sounded as though he cooperated fully with the officer. Attempting to point out things like that he had a concealed carry license would seem to be well within his rights, and just because you engage an officer in conversation, particularly to inform him of things he needs to know should never be interpreted as “giving lip.”

    The fact that the officer so willingly suggested that he’d give Mark access to Internal Affairs suggests to me first of all that the officer didn’t understand the law, and that even though the officer realized that he’d over-reacted that he didn’t think he’d other than be completely cleared by the inside investigation of IA. I expect he’ll eventually have to file suit if he wants any kind of satisfaction from this unfortunate incident.

    • Anonymous

      Having a license and having good judgement are totally different things….. as shown by cowboy Mark.

  • CIDAV8R

    In my opinion, this guy was looking for this to happen. This 24 year old child was carrying openly in Philadelphia and carried a tape recorder which tells me he wanted a confrontation. He had obviously rehearsed his own response, he set it up and he got it. I’ve seen this so many times with gun rights people – not as much to this extent but usually in a more administrative way. People have the legal right to do something so they shove it in other people’s face. I think this is stupid. First, it’s stupid to provoke a confrontation with a police officer. When a cop points a gun at your chest and tells you to do something – DO IT. Don’t ask questions. Don’t make comments. Don’t debate him. Follow instructions to the letter. If you have a problem with the cop, deal with it after the situation has been defused. Second, it’s stupid to walk down the street flaunting your right to carry openly knowing full well that much of the general public are going to be shocked and scared to see a firearm carried openly and that this is going to get attention. In terms of promoting gun rights, this is the WORST thing anyone can do.

    The last several years have seen an enormous expansion of gun rights across the country. The Heller case in DC and the McDonald case in Chicago both have provided a legal basis for this and it’s a HUGE victory for us. People are applying for, and receiving, CCW permits in record numbers. Hooray! Don’t do anything stupid to screw it up! The fact that all this has happened so quickly means that sheeple haven’t had time to adjust to it. If YOU are smart, YOU will give them that time. We need to show the sheeple that guns AREN’T scary and that guns AREN’T evil things. You don’t do this by waving them in their face. All this will do is bolster anti-gun efforts. Tides change the advances we have made can be taken away just as quickly.

    We need to maintain and even increase the momentum we’ve established in the last several years. You do this by demonstrating to the sheeple how responsible and safe you are. You do this by quietly and respectfully exercising your rights. Make the sheeple comfortable and put them to sleep. In the mean time, you work to educate the sheeple, you help to slowly build statistics that PROMOTE our cause, you work to persuade ALL law enforcement to support us, and we all continue to work through government and the legal system to expand and protect our rights. Carry a gun to protect yourself, NOT to make a public statement or get your 15 min of fame on CNN or the local news or YouTube.

    The constitution is a beautiful, wonderful, amazing document but it only works if we have smart people who can handle responsibility. This guy was stupid. BE SMART.

    • Mike2dotcom

      24 year old child? I was already a Viet-Nam vet by that age my son has already been to Iraq and now in Afghanistan at 24.. If it was a set up it shows why it needed to be done. I support law enforcement but they too must maintain professionalism and give respect to a person they are only questioning not arresting

      • Anonymous

        Oh was this cowboy a 24 year old combat veteran? If he was, he would have had better judgement than to do what he did.

      • Anonymous

        Oh was this cowboy a 24 year old combat veteran? If he was, he would have had better judgement than to do what he did.

      • CIDAV8R

        Not all 24 year old’s are the same. I think this one was acting childishly in an attempt to garner attention. The fact that I used the word “child” was to set him apart from other 24 year old’s from whom you might expect more adult behavior and attitudes. I’m sorry you didn’t understand that.

        My thanks to you and your son who served. Undoubtedly you were an adult at 24. I don’t believe this person is.

    • Bill Durham

      You seem to have missed the fact that the OFFICER caused this whole incident. If the OFFICER knew the law, he would not have drawn down on, and instigated trouble with, this LAW ABIDING CITIZEN.
      It really doesn’t matter if the CITIZEN knew this was going to happen, and was prepared for it. The OFFICER caused all of what took place, simply because of his ignorance. Ignorance is not a set-up.

      • Anonymous

        No, sorry. The officer did not start the incident. The open carry in an inappropriate place started the incident. The copper just sent it into schitzville. I say again, Mark is lucky he is alive.

        • Jethrotrc

          STFU

          • CIDAV8R

            Profanity is the attempt of a weak mind to express itself forcefully. This forum is here for the free exchange of opinion and ideas. Yours is not the only one that matters. Contribute positively or go away.

          • Anonymous

            Oh come on, you can do better than letters…….. why don’t you use an ad homenem attack or play the racial card……. you know how, you’re good at it.

    • Anonymous

      I agree. This cowboy was looking for trouble, trying to prove he is a macho gaucho.

    • Anonymous

      I agree. This cowboy was looking for trouble, trying to prove he is a macho gaucho.

    • Riana

      Wait… because I carry (sometimes openly, sometimes not), and happen to have a voice recorder in my purse (yes, it’s running), I’m LOOKING for a confrontation? If a strong breeze blows back my cover garment as I walk by a police car, I’m LOOKING for a confrontation? No. Looking for a confrontation would be waving the gun around and calling the officer every colorful name I could think of as he drove by. What this guy did was make the mistake of walking to an auto parts store to get a part to fix his car. Oh, and be in Philadelphia.

      The officer started into this encounter with a full head of steam – calling the carrier “Junior”, drawing down on him before even seeing his face. From the audio, I can’t tell that the carrier wasn’t complying with the orders he questioned (e.g., going to his knees and asking “Why?” which is what I would have done).

      I can forgive the officer for not knowing the law 100% – that’s not an easy thing to tackle. But when offered the carrier’s permit to carry, he should have called dispatch and ASKED someone, “Hey, here’s the carrier’s name, permit, etc – I need to verify if it is legal to OC here with this permit.” He could have at least tried to find out. Instead, he took every word from the carrier and assumed it was an insult (which is not what I heard).

      • CIDAV8R

        Riana, you carry as you see fit and justify your actions as you like. I don’t see a reason to carry openly in this situation unless he was trying to provoke a response or draw attention. The purpose of carrying a weapon is for defense, you don’t need to carry openly to accomplish that, in fact, carrying concealed is likely more effective. Most DPS officers encourage permit holders to carry concealed and I agree with them for the reasons they cite. Retreat is always the best option if available and is required by law in many states. Going visibly heeled is provocative and should the need arise to defend yourself, may work against you in court. But if you know better, do as you like. I won’t waste time trying to convince you.

        • Riana

          I wasn’t intending a discussion of the merits of OC vs. CC. I was concerned that you believe the carrying of a voice recorder means that someone is looking for a confrontation: “…was carrying openly in Philadelphia and carried a tape recorder which tells me he wanted a confrontation.”

          Am I mis-interpreting your statement? If so, my apologies.

          And while I understand your concern for scaring people with an openly carried firearm, I don’t understand how a concealed one can educate them. Can you clarify?

          • CIDAV8R

            You don’t educate by the act of carrying – I don’t know where you got that. You educate by communicating – explaining, patiently, the merits of gun ownership and CCW in a non-threatening way. However, guns evoke emotional responses from people who are not used to them. When people are scared, many people lose the ability to think rationally. We need them to think rationally if we are going to win them over. My whole point was that we need to help anti-gun people feel comfortable while we carry. OC is not a good start to this process. In other words, you get farther with honey than vinegar.

            It is my opinion, based on the combination of facts that he was carrying openly on the doorstep of the most anti-gun area in the country, carrying an active voice recorder, and the way he responded to the officer, that he was looking for a confrontation. Do I KNOW this? No. I can’t possibly know what he was thinking. But I think the facts support my supposition and, based on my experience, I would judge that to be the case. Feel free to disagree, but recognize that you don’t KNOW for sure either.

  • ProjectDexter

    Philly is a dangerous place, definitely not the city of brotherly love. I would open carry simply for the intimidation factor over bad guys if that is indeed legal. Permit holders and LEO are on the same side, too bad most don’t see it that way.

  • Ccnordlund

    AND WHERE IS THE I’M SORRY FROM THE POLICE??????

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tracy-Campbell/100001148534790 Tracy Campbell

      I have a feeling that will follow in the form of a cash settlement.

      • Anonymous

        Ya. Mark probably should buy the cops’ dinner for not shooting his axx.

        • Anonymous

          He should buy them dinner for doing their job terribly? Way to reward incompetence.

          • Anonymous

            they weren’t incompetent enough to shoot him, were they?

  • Doc Luther

    I think the police started the altercation with the condescending “Hey, Junior!” comment That said, there is no place for pride when carrying open or concealed, and the guy should have simply complied but still recorded everything.

    The police here in Prince William County, VA are a little more understanding of open carry would not harasse someone needlessly. I KNOW Philly is a high crime area, but it would take a real idiot of a bad guy to open carry.

    Simply put, the cop should have taken a more gentle approach.

    • Anonymous

      The police started with “hey Junior”?????? How did they know to holler at him? Like I said, he was pushing the limit to show off, and it bit him. He is lucky he is not injured or dead. I could have been right along side of him concealed, and they wouldn’t have bothered me.

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  • tarawa1943

    This is not just un-professional but rancid puke, just the blasphemous mouth of the office is enough to make one bitter against all law enforcement officers. Open carry is legal in many states but who wants to get abused like this. This is not only illegal but almost approaching the gestapo level of puke.

    • Anonymous

      All ya gotta do is keep the damn thing concealed. Nothing would have happened, would it?

      • Anonymous

        All ya gotta do is know the law, Officer. Nothing would have happened, would it?

        • Mischl

          I don’t like a bunch of cowboy cops rolling over top of my constitutional rights. I carry openly AND concealed, depending upon the circumstances. If I ever get treated like that by any kind of law enforcement officer, I WILL hire the best & meanest lawyer available. I’m not the least interesting in suing for money–but I WILL sue for my rights as a citizen.

      • Poncho

        wrong

      • Goofball4

        Why don’t the cops know the laws that they as supposed to be upholding? If they did, nothing would have happened, would t?

  • Smackdown12121992

    the cops where wrong in every way they should be fired unprofessional wasting everyones time completely

  • Centennial Firearms

    Whether you are right or wrong, NEVER argue with the police. Comply immediately with all their instructions. Arguing or attempting to engage in a discussion while the officer has you at gunpoint is not a good situation. Once the officer shows up and is in control of the situation, then you can have a respectful discussion, just like what eventually happened here.

  • Vawing

    I sure hope the Chief, acts very strongly , what idiot work from a supposed professional , what a disgrace.Open carry is legal anywhere if you have a CWP.
    The Police should have to have hours of schooling on the laws.This guy should sue their butts off.

  • Stamps143

    This kid went out of his way to prove a point regarding open carry laws.

    Although He may well have been within his right to open carry he could have been shot and killed in proving his point.

    Even if the Officer knew law regarding open carry ( and it does appear as if he doesn’t ) He still has the right to do whatever He feels is necessary for his own safety during His interview.

    He saw a person carrying a gun and He has the right to detain that person.

    He has the right to draw his weapon on that person while ascertaining the person in fact holds a permit.

    Furthermore, a license to carry doesn’t make that person any less of a threat to the officer because the officer doe not know what the person is thinking.

    It’s the same principal as asking a person to stay in their vehicle, and/or shut off their vehicle, and/or take the keys out of the vehicle.

    It is all for the safety of the Officer as well and public safety.

    Polite words of non compliance are no better than any other form of non compliance.

    Harassment ? Unprofessional ?

    My bet is that anyone of You would have reacted the same way if you were put in the position of those cops.

    • Sw29-2

      No, I respectfully disagree. I would not have reacted the same way as this cop and the others called to the scene. For one, I would not have begun the “interview” with “Hey Junior” and I would not have begun yelling obscenities and at the suspect completely without provocation based on this recording. Police officers are supposed to be trained in de-escalating a situation are they not?. This officer (and his backup) did exactly the opposite and this could have turned out very badly for all involved if the suspect did have bad intentions. The suspect offered his LTCF immediately and instead of accepting it the officer calls for backup, further escalating the situation unnecessarily.

      As I said in an earlier post, I do not think open carry even if legal is wise but that does not excuse abusive and poor police-work. I also believe that you do what the officer is telling you to do without debate and take it up later if there is an issue, but If a police officer gets this rattled over something like this then I have to question his ability to effectively handle the types of high pressure situations police officers regularly find themselves in.

      • Anonymous

        “Cpwboy meets cowboy”….. each daring the other to be tougher.
        Better get used to it. Seemingly irrational actions by LEOs is going to be the future of “open carry”.

    • Mike2dotcom

      You are flat out wrong the police were very unprofessional

    • http://profiles.google.com/gagetman.hamilton6 glenn hamilton

      First, I’m a retired LEO. When the law says you can open carry, thats the law. Just as you can not stop someone from driving their car without PC to check for a drivers lis. you can not stop someone for open carry. You need PC you dumb _____s!You must have been sleeping during your 4th amend class.
      The Sgt would have been handeling this correctly if the knucklehead was acting crazy or just committed a crime, not just for open carry. He should know the law as he is a supervisor. Philly is going to make this kid wealthy now.

  • Wb7cy

    No apology, totally out of control LEO. I hope this is just an isolated incident and not rampant through out the US where it is legal to open carry.

    I guess this should be another reason to continue to carry concealed.

    • Anonymous

      The LEO recognized a “cowboy” who was wanting attention and out to prove something. Mark got the attention he solicited.

      • ObamaTard

        Excuse me, thanks communist professor.

  • PaulM1951

    I have a permit and I am always armed for my wife and myself to be protected. My wife is always armed too. She protects or backs me up if the ned is there. I will never open carry no matter what the law says. I have seen and read about enough people being jumped by a couple of guys and I don’t know if I would beable to prevent them from getting my gun. That ain’t going to happen.

  • PaulM1951

    I know this say’s this happened just a day ago, but I could swear I heard these same tape’s over a year ago.

  • Anonymous

    Isn’t it rather irresponsible of the city to have police out on the street who aren’t familiar with the carry laws of the state in which they work? Furthermore, the unprofessional conduct of this one particular police sergeant suggests he could use some training in dealing with the public. There’s no reason for the filthy mouth… anywhere!

  • Acftmechus

    OC should call his lawyer!

  • Maxpax27

    He was looking for a confrontation and he got one! he knew exactly what kind of response it would generate in Philly and he got what he was looking for!
    Should the Sergeant control the situation and the responding officers ? Absolutely!
    Should the Sergeant know the restrictions, or lack of them, with regard to open carry? Again, absolutely!
    This guy is no angel and should not be portrayed as such! He wanted to be a media star and now he IS at the expense of the Sergeant.

    • Anonymous

      I agree. Cops respond to “man with a gun” call or happen just see the man. What should they do? I have CCW but I personally believe that open carry is not good, unless you are very rural with like minded people. Trying to prove a point in a large LIBERAL city can get you killed. Mark, be glad you got handcuffed and not shot by a touchy liberal LEO.

    • Anonymous

      So let’s see. In this scenario, we have one guy who knew and exercised his rights and another who did not know the law and overreacted and may have killed an innocent man. Which one is the angel and which one is the devil? One guy in this scenario didn’t just stand up for his own rights, he stood up for the rights of others. One guy in this scenario wasted valuable public resources. Which one elevated this scenario to make it newsworthy?

  • 45guy

    Too bad he didn’t draw on that cop, kill the loser and drive away.

  • Pshaw6139

    Whats wrong with leo’s today? Wow I would make sure he never did this to anyone again.
    Good luck as I sure hope you sue.

  • Anonymous

    Wow Mark, I bet you feel like a full fledged cowboy now, huh. Out to prove something by open carrying? You’ll be real lucky if it doesn’t cost you several thousand dollars to be found innocent in court. But just think of the exciting story you can butch about for years.

    • ObamaTard

      Thanks, professor idiot.

  • Malbert49

    As a former LEO of 28 years, most of it here in Pennsylvania, I have to say he was lucky that the Sgt did not shoot him. Philadelphia is a crap hole and the cops act like it. Also, I have never known a criminal to open carry his gun in a holster and just stroll down the street. Philadelphia politicians…remember Ed Rendel…are mobbed up and run their own little world. They think they are separate of Pennsylvania.

    I hope this guy sues Philadelphia and wins. It is too close to New Jersey and I think they drink the same water.

  • zx6rrich

    It was also wrong to dump all the tea into the harbor and taunt the Red Coats. It was also wrong for African Americans to sit at the front of the bus. It was wrong to consume alcohol. It was wrong to refuse soldiers to stay in your house. It was wrong to say something bad against the church. It was wrong to own a metal shovel. It is wrong to open carry.
    Every one of the things that I listed people fought for people died for and people that wrote our constitution for.

    Mark is just as right as our forefathers by confronting authority for our rights

    • Jethrotrc

      A-freaking MEN

  • Techster

    I think he should have eased up on the attitude just a bit at first, and complied with his questions, and he’d have been on his way in minutes.

    Cop didn’t know you from Adam.

  • Rte203

    time for a class action Suit, This is a crime against all CCW’s Or OC

  • Anonymous

    Missouri is an “Open Carry” state with a fairly friendly “shall issue” CCW law on the books. There are a few municipalities that have enacted ordinances banning open carry as is their privilege, and in those places one should only ever carry concealed and then only with a valid CCW endorsement. Everywhere else you *should* be OK to carry openly, but I’ve had cop friends warn me of the deadly cop mayhem likely to befall me if ever I did. This attitude of “the law’s what I tell you it is” is not an isolated one among LEO’s unfortunately. It is for the fact that so may cops feel this way that I only carry concealed in town, but openly out in the country.

    With regard to the ongoing conversation, certainly there were details about how Mark handled the situation once confronted that perhaps could have been handled more effectively, but keep in mind that he was surrounded by a slew of cops all pointing firearms at him and presumably wearing ballistic garments which it’s doubtful he did. It’s a lot easier to think about the best mode of action when you’re not having firearms pointed at you by whacko cops.

    I can almost see how some folks come off calling his actions provocative, but carrying the recorder is likely the only reason he wasn’t charged with a crime after a very different story was reported on the official arrest record. And by the way, there are very few places where recording in this fashion so long as at least one of the people being recorded is aware of said recording. I can’t say about PA, but since they didn’t arrest him for a crime I have to assume that PA also recognizes that right because obviously that cop wanted to bust Mark for *something.* Most LEOs are decent, reasonable people, but it’s not them you have to worry about, and it’s not them you have trouble with.

  • pastor t

    This is more than just an issue on OC. I’ve read these posts and seen fingers pointed both ways. The serious issue is the degrading and incendiary way the officers in this sound clip spoke and treated this American citizen. This kind of attitude has and continues to create a large rift between the citizen and the police. We have too many police out to enforce the inflated image of their personal power and authority rather than the law! The Leo’s were obviously more concerned about getting their “respect” than what the law said. Had this man fell to the ground rolled over like a dog and recognized them as the “Alphas” of society they believe they are, they may have been pacified. After all that’s what they want! Strong educated aware citizens are always a threat to this “alpha” mentality. It makes me sad to say this as an American but it’s true!

  • Jethrotr

    To all of you that think that the suspect was in the wrong you need to stop and think about what you would do when placed in that situation unless you are a current LEO or former or have had a gun pulled on you or have been put in a stressful situation i think that the other 99.9% of you cannot accurately predict what you would do, you can train and train and train until it runs through your brain 24 hours a day but having the real thing happen is totally differnet.

  • Pshaw6139

    I tell you this realy gets me pissed every time I try and listen and to think my son is in war to protect cops like this grrrrrr He is not a cop to me as hes a thug with a badge.

  • gochevy

    Obviously things did not start out well in this confrontation; however the law enforcement officers did the right thing in the end. The office was professional, once he realized that the person was legally carrying, he returned his firearm, and let him leave the scene. Only in America! Had this happen elsewhere, this guy would have been beaten severely if not killed. While the officer initially made a mistake, he quickly (45 minutes is realitvely quickly considering it may have been a felony charge) realized his mistake once other law enforcement officers confirmed that OC is legal.

  • Q

    AixSponsa, what the hell is your deal? Half the comments on this page are yours. What is your agenda, and why are you trying to push it on everyone else here? Does this guys IP trace to Europe?

  • tarawa1943

    I am a CCW Instructor and I would always train people with the approach that the Police Office has the delegated authority to enforce the laws of the state, county or Country based on the Constitution. IMO: Most comments here against the officer shows some degree of disrespect for the Officer’s authority, not that you should not question authority but that you should approach the Officer differently or work to have his supervisor see that he needs some serious re-training. If the OC for Phili was that important to the legal OC citizen, he should work in the legal system to change the laws while seeking all other ways to get others to accept OC in Phili. IMO: I would not carry openly in larger populated cities of states that OC is legal to do but CC only, just because of the respect for the authority for the Police Officer. my 2cents.

    • Anonymous

      I respect any officer that knows the laws he is required to uphold and enforce. This officer, THIS particular officer, does not deserve that respect. He didn’t give it to the citizen, and he sure didn’t earn any with his actions in this case. The police are given the authority to uphold and enforce and KNOW the law, especially if ignorance of the law is no defense for the citizen. The disrespectful to police comments you are reading here is because they are not acting within the level of authority We grant them. Police forces nationwide need to be trained better. They have a tough job, no argument there, so to make it easier on them doing their jobs they should not harass innocent people, ever.

      • tarawa1943

        bones, pastor; I agree with you. I am saying there must be something that can be done with society, LEO’s and civilians with this hard line adversarial position. Sounds like the middle east! I experienced a problem like this in Israel and they are really more aggressive LEO and Military. I can guarantee you that most commenting here screaming rights violated, ought to visit other foreign countries and see what their experiences would be like. Then they would realize we have the Greatest Nation on the face of the Earth! Sadly we may be moving too fast towards Europe, ME and Asia in our culture. IMO: The only stopgap might be adherence to the Constitution. I am not doomsday neither am I a sheeple but it does not look good as of today.

    • pastor t

      I understand your point and appreciate your tone. I would rather CC than OC. I also don’t think most commenting here mean to sound anti-police. But when you here this blatant abuse by this officer and his arriving supervisor you get angry. Because we know this goes on here and in any given situation across the board with much of the modern LEO’s. It’s not a delegated authority issue, but an abuse of this authority and power. As far as taking the legal road, I think we all know where that ends in the American court system that is packed with liberal judges. I have great respect for the decent law abiding officers of the law but I’m sick and tired of the rest!

  • Ccvmod

    Please don’t take what I say the wrong way. But this is the very reason why I don’t OC. The country bumpkin cops around here would put you through the same crap that this guy went through. I started laughing when I can hear the sarg calling someone to find out what the laws are about OC. The vast majority of police officers that I have met do not understand that OC is legal in NC as well CC with a permit. Many of them believe the only ones that should have guns are the police. Yes, I know there are lots of good cops as well that support our gun laws. I don’t have the spare cash to give to lawyers to prove a point. I also believe that most would agree that if you open carry, and you carry a recording device it would come across as you were looking for trouble. This isn’t against the law though. In the end those cops knew they were in deep and everything they said was recorded. Notice how the cops remembered the event going down totally different than the way it actually did. This should scare the hell out of you!!!! Then they start talking about what holster he is using, unbelievable!!! I sure hope we can find out in the future what transpires from this case. I hope that sarg and the other foul mouthed cop must give the man a verbal apology for the way he was treated and it needs to be on the 6:00 news.

  • JimSmitty

    I for one glad he did this. Yes I think he went out looking for it. Yes he could have been shot/killed. I’m also glad someone had balls to stand up for our rights, even at gun point. I agree he should have listened to the cop. I would like to do this myself in all the states I’m permitted to carry but I don’t have the $ for the potential legal fees.

    This guy risked life, time and money to publicly show that you can legally open carry, perhaps let everyone (pro and anit-gun alike) know this and feel comfortable doing this if they chose to. So many of us know the laws/our rights but are scared to practice them in fear of arrest and legal fees to defend against LEO/general public ingorance.

    • tarawa1943

      JimSmitty, that is the bright side to all this drama.

  • Mischl

    I’ve always detested the city of Philadelphia. This does nothing but confirm the way I’ve felt. And you can bet the “law officers” of Philadelphia will never see me cross into their turf…at least not without a federal escort.

  • Tea Party

    Kutos to Mark! Way to stand your ground. We will take this country back and make officiers realize they are here to protect our rights…all rights even the 2nd ammendment. I wouldn’t let them off the hook either with the way they treated and talked to you. You showed no disrespect nor any hostile actions. Thanks!

    • Ddjrfd

      Where in the world did you learn that law enforcement is here to “protect our rights”? That is not their responsibility, that belongs in the courts. They have guidelines to follow after making an arrest such as Miranda and when a suspect asks for a lawyer, unlawful search etc. These are statutes that they are required to follow but upholding your rights per say are not foremost in their duties.
      Most officers are respectful and you can expect them to react to how you conduct yourself. In other words if you act like a penis with ears you may be treated as such.
      By the way, who are you going to take back the country from?

  • R4fthrs

    Every single one of the officers who spoke to him and had contact with him should lose their badge and be charged with harrasment and viloation of civil rights. I come from a family of law enforcement and their behavior was appauling on just about every level. City of brotherly love????

  • Buffalobill72

    PIGS belong in the slaughter house officers in uniform and law abiding citizens in the streets.
    I hope this so called sergeant repays taxpayers all the money wasted based on his stupidity and poor judgement.

  • Majordad5

    Interesting experience. I’ll give the fact that this guy was probably baiting the police some, you just don’t open carry in a place like Philly without realizing that you are going to get hassled.

    That being said, the officers were way wrong. When I went through the academy years ago, we were taught that we had to keep our cool even when being baited, sworn at or called names. Profanity was unprofessional and demeaning for the officer. Now this guy, especially since he was a Sergeant is very telling and sad in that it shows a very poor professionalism for the Philadelphia PD. The Sergeant of all people should have known better.

    Also you do not have to point your gun at someone just because they have a gun. The proper posture if you think it might escalate is to draw your gun and keep it at the low ready, It is not nearly as threatening and yet is readily available if the suspect starts to act aggressively. Plus should (heaven forbid) you accidentally discharge your weapon (yes it actually does occur at times) you are less likely to kill or injure the suspect. I have drawn my weapon many times on situations that I was not sure on but kept it at the low ready until I could effectively determine what was going on.

    • Q

      I think you mean NEGLIGENTLY DISCHARGE. There is no such thing as an accidental discharge.

    • sidewinderaz

      I agree with you completely. When the sphincters tighten there’s always the chance for a negligent discharge. I like low ready too.

  • GUNTEACHER19143

    COOPDOG PHILA POLICE DO NOT HAVE DASH CAMERA IN MOST OF PATROL CARS FOR 1 I HAVE BEEN APPROACH BY OFFICER AND BECAUSE OF MY DEMEANOR THEY SHOOK MY HAND AND TOLD ME TO BE SAFE COURTESY IS NOT THE ISSUE ITS AUTHORITY THAT THESE PEOPLE DONT LOOK AT NEGATIVE + NEGATIVE = BIG MESS
    SOMEONE HAS TO KNOW WHEN TO STAY EASY IT WORK ALL THE TIME 28 YEARS LEO

  • http://twitter.com/ramcvey Richard McVey

    He’s lucky he wasnt in Seattle. Cops here shoot ya in the side while crossing the street.

  • Vawing

    Every person in Philly with a CWP permit should just carry open to make sure these knuckle headed cops get it.

    • sidewinderaz

      I wonder if there are enough cops in Philly to harass them all? Naw…they’d probably call out the National Guard.

  • Sj4640

    This will only cause more problems in the near future for people with cwp. I don’t believe in a recourse would be the answer.but again I am only one cwp person

  • sidewinderaz

    I have to chime in on this. I live in CA, grew up in AZ and lived in TX for quite a while as well. OC is not legal in every state just because you have a CCW permit.
    As for the LEO, he completely overreacted. Who in God’s name would be stupid enough (I’m talking criminals here) to open carry? I also wondered with his lack of people skills how that nimrod even made seargent? I’m sure there’s plenty of blame to go around on both sides but cops are public SERVANTS and disrespecting (junior?) someone that way will do nothing but set things on a negative path. If he were well trained, he would have confronted our OC guy with his hand on his weapon ready to draw if necessary. Also, if he had been answering a complaint of “man with a gun” there would have been a dozen cops there to answer the call and rightfully so.
    I used to be an OC proponent. But seeing the reaction of the uninitiated and galactacally stupid convinced me that concealed carry was the way to go. I don’t want to draw attention to myself and advertise to everyone that I have a gun. Especially someone with criminal intent. Open carry here in CA is a joke. You might as well carry a stick (or a knife) because open carry is allowed only with an unloaded weapon. And they’re trying to take even that “privilege” away as I speak. But I digress…
    IMO OC is drawing unnecessary attention to yourself and brings on the unwanted confrontations like this audio projects.
    That’s my $0.02 worth.
    Cheers!

  • Goofball4

    Another thing to think about is how many bad guys actually holster their guns on their hip out in the open?

  • vanphillips

    Jeeeeez!! coopdog has it right! And, this is a Sargent on the Philadelphia force – not a rookie? Would someone check and see if the Philadelphia PD sold the “Liberty Bell” to then Afghanistan Rebels!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=607264357 Joshua Walters

    LEOs dont have the right to put others into danger “Just to make it though the day”. Dont like it? Find a new profession.

    Whether you agree with Mark’s position or not, the officer still pointed a loaded firearm at him. In Indiana, that earns us “citizens” a felony and a trip to the local holding cell.

    I understand LEOs are people just like the rest of us, so they need to be treated like the rest of us. If I come across another OCer, I dont pull my OCd gun, then reach for my backup. I nod and wave, and assume that they are not breaking any laws. An officer should do the same, although it is fair enough for him to request a weapons license or permit, along with some photo ID. That is the extent of it though.

    • tarawa1943

      Is it a possibility the Office had just visited a tactical pistol match and realized he could not draw that fast, as the OCer, and overreacted?

  • bruce bolt

    birth place of america philly all its takes is a uniformed inarticulate cop whos only know the f word forceable unconnected cartel knowage sue sue dsue
    i just served on a 187 trill an their was no gun charges don,tyou feel safe

  • bruce bolt

    birth place of america philly all its takes is a uniformed inarticulate cop whos only know the f word forceable unconnected cartel knowage sue sue dsue
    i just served on a 187 trill an their was no gun charges don,tyou feel safe

  • Quad

    Wow. I gotta tell ya… the victim was totally composed, and respectful. I hope the offending officer gets a stiff reprimand from this.

  • Ddjrfd

    I realize that our rights are very very important, but is risking your life by disobeying a lawful command from a police officer really how you want to check out? Until the situation is in the officers control, shut your mouth and comply.

    Now comes the “this was not lawful” line. The officer does not know that until he completes his preliminary investigation. An armed person legal or not is a threat to any officer until controlled.

    As the saying goes, “if you’re behind the alert curve you may well be dead”!

    The SGT. in this case was out of line in his command language, but not his level of caution.

  • Anonymous

    Yea, just imagine if Santa clause was carrying.
    Couple things about this. Philadelphia is a war zone. The last three people that they found with a pistol in a thy holster were crazies. That doesn’t mean they can ignore our rights, but in my opinion we should do our best to make their jobs as easy as possible.
    I think the cop was as calm as he could be given that he a) wasn’t properly trained to know what the law was regarding open carry, and b) the carrier kept saying he didn’t want to do what the cop wanted him to do. As for the backup, when they pointed the tazed and took him down, they were working off the first officers information that they had an ‘uncooperative armed man’, which generally he did.
    In my opinion, it could have been handled better by both parties, but if ‘junior’ cared as much about the cops as he did his rights, I think he would have complied more readily, and explained the law after the cop was under far less stress.

  • Mrcaver2you

    Sounds to me like Philadelphia pigs are as out of control as it gets, not even aware of the laws they’re overpaid to enforce. Stupid SOB’s. F bombs flying, that cop is a moron, the other cops that showed up weren’t any smarter. Power tripping losers are the poster children for why nobody respects stinking cops anyway.

  • Guest

    So Mark…what was the outcome of the IA investigation? Did you take any other action against the city of Philly? If not, then you have entertained us all for a bit, but very little good came from your sharing this with us. These things must be pursued to the extent of the law until the time comes when drawing down on a legal OCer will carry criminal charges (and prosecution) of those doing so.

  • Ubersapien

    Reply to AixSponsa:
    This is about all of our rights to self-defense. Once the offending officer gets punished for being an over-reacting tool, other police officers in the area will take heed of his situation. Knowing the difference between right and wrong in a street situation is what police officers are paid to do by your tax dollar. I don’t want to think I’m paying someone to harass myself or others at random because of an imaginary message sent from space men or religious dieties. I’m sure we would all prefer that they at least use that $4K dollar computer in their squad car to Google the damn law if they are unsure of it. He could have even checked his I-Phone. In this information age, he could have even asked the dispatcher for clarification prior to the encounter, holy crap, what an idea.
    After volunteering and completing my term of service in the military, I know that things can go sideways very fast. This does not mean that the initial approach a police officer makes should mimic anything from the movie Pulp Fiction. Keep the adrenaline levels down, calm the situation, and proceed with caution.
    There is no doubt in my mind that this man would have relinquished his firearm and/or placed it on the ground so the officer could “feel safer”. This way he could have done a firearm license and ID check on the, now unarmed, man on the sidewalk.
    No I don’t know the law for this situation, I am merely stating something that would seem reasonable to anyone.
    “Hi, I’m Officer Snuffy. I see your carry a firearm openly. Could you please relinquish your firearm to me, so that I may verify your PA Firearms License?” Simple, short, to the point, and non-threatening, just as that man had been the entire time.

    • Q

      Carrying a firearm is not probable cause, you toolbox.

  • xhawkx

    Damn, this got me so angry, when I woke up this morning it was the first thing I thought about. Now I know LEOs get the benefit, but this dude should not be a cop, and,I do believe it was not his first rodeo ,his unprofessional actions are a learned behavior and would bet the farm,if I had one, that he has dumped the F bomb @ innocent citizens more than a few times. He has issues that go way behond the norm, as shone when he said his first words, “Hey Jr.” and his first actions, Drew down before exiting his car. I hope that he goes forth with everything that is available to him. Again this incedant shows us that LEOs are above the law, he broke the law because he did not know the law, Mark could of been killed for knowing the law, so the a$$ cop gets an oooops, I take that back, did not mean to violate your right, and not even an appology.
    I do hope everyone keeps us all updated on this when they get further info.

    Thanks X

  • USAairforceEOD

    Any followup on this?

  • Anonymous

    Open carry is your right.

    That still doesn’t make it the right thing to do. Why bother with police harassment and possible assault/arrest(wrongful as it may be)? Why are you open carrying in a major city?

    Concealed carry is just more polite. There are a lot of people with no experience with firearms and they will over-react when confronted with an openly armed individual.

    Open carry is your right but that doesn’t make you less of a tool when you walk around looking to confront police.

  • Dambear76

    If the laws are written then the police need to know then and enforce then. Police need to know the laws. Citizens also need to stand up for the laws or vote for better ones. I can’t believe all the comments telling this man is should not exercise his rights when is not violating any law. Ignorance is the cousin to stupid.

  • Jrush76

    I would have hated to hear about this story with an African American or Latin American. Wonder how that would have turned out. I hope that the department learned something for this. Knowing Philadelphia LEOs lack the knowledge of the law forced me to move back to Virginia. I wish he would have asked for the badge number. Ignorant LEOs keep people in fear of a police state.

  • Anon

    a transcript or unofficial transcipt would be great appreciated for clarity

  • H4mcanfield

    I think the officers could have been a little more level headed in this situation, but I also think this guy was looking for trouble by having his weapon out on display.

  • Bsmith

     I have to side with the cops on this one. Look, if you are stopped by the police and are told to do something there is no debating the issue, just do what you are told. Maybe you think you have a case for court later on, then so be it. If they tell you to go to the ground, do it. I’m from Chicago and am a little older than this fellow that was stopped. He should have complied with the police and the situation might not have escalated as it did. The cops have a hard enough time as it is without having to deal with someone that has obviously staged this type of incident to happen. License or not, it is not every day that you  see someone open carrying in a metropolitan area such as Philly. I think the police response was perfectly appropriate for the situation.  

  • doug p.

    yep….. what a bunch of fuck ups. Sadly, Im sure they will go un punished for their misdeeds…

  • T0mmysharp42

    if ur not doing anything illegal then follow his first order, bc when u ingnore 14 orders from a cop you WILL be arrested in every city,town, and state in america

  • Anthonyl025

    Sounds like Philly cops need an investigation from Internal affairs and many need to be replaced…. this is the second article I’ve read about some dumb crap Philly PD has done.

  • Catherinelee001

    Police need to be better informed on the laws they are paid to enforce! Things like this are unecessary and just make the enforcers of our laws look bad. Yes it could have been handled differently. However, the fact also remains that a concealed weapons permit does not allow you to open carry in public. Each state has its own laws, and each has their own permits. To all gun owners and concealed carry permit holders I say to you: Know your laws in the state you are in as well as for the permit you carry. Police can arrest you for no reason at all. But the law is always argued in court. If you follow the law you are in the right.

  • Anonymous

    Have to say, this whole deal was a cluster *YEP*… It does seem that the “Law Abiding Citizen” was trolling for just this sort of outcome. Was that his intent? Maybe not, but to carry an audio recorder seems like you ARE trying to “pick a fight” with someone. NOW on to the LE side… First – “Junior”? Are you serious? I guess they don’t teach respectful approaches to ALL of the officers on the streets these days. Just as a LE EXPECTS to be treated with respect, it is a two way street and “Junior” is not the way to go. Secondly – Gun drawn BEFORE you call out for him to turn? The only time I can see this being a valid approach is when the “suspect” is in fact taking an offensive posture when you arrive. Doesn’t seem to fit here. Third – First officer displayed no interest in “learning” about the situation. Kept saying “I don’t know you” and such, but wouldn’t listen to the guy at all. Fourth – I can understand asking for backup but come on!!! This was overkill. What a waste of public resources. Not to mention the cavalry came in with the “guns a blazing” attitude. REALLY? Fifth – When the officer discovered the recorder, and declared that it was “illegal” for him to be recording this, if that were true why did you let the recording continue? And lastly – As has been stated already almost an hour to resolve? Again what a wonderful use of public resources. Is there really that little going on in Philly that they can afford that kind of use of time? WOW!

  • Rudiepop

    Moron! That was a setup if I ever saw/ heard one. When a cop tells you to get on you knees you do it! Idoit! Lucky you didn’t get shot fool.

    • Anonymous

      What in the hell was he setting up, how the freak did he know that the LEO was going to call him Jr. and He sure didn’t want the idiot cop to shoot him and the most important fact that all you COPs are missing, the idiot Cop does NOT know the laws of his own state and positively never heard of the U.S. Constitution and the 2nd Amendment. And this was not that idiot cop’s first rodeo, I am pretty sure this cop has treated lawful citizens in the same manner using the same language that he did in this piece of work.

  • Jerry

    There was a man in Philadelphia last month shot inside his home by an off-duty Philadelphia Police Officer. They were involved in a confrontation in the street the man had an unloaded pistol in his back pocket ( he was on his way to the range with friends all ammo was in the car) a few words were said between the two the the off-duty officer who never saiid he was a cop started after the other he ran back into his house and slammed the door causing him to fall to the ground. Over 30 neighbors on the street witnessed the off duty cop run acrossed the street and kick in the door and shot the man as he laid on the floor in front of his kids and girlfriend.
    It now appears that the philadelphia police department is tring to charge him with attempted murder of a police officer.

  • Lpartain

    Clearly the city of brotherly love has gone downhill since the days of Jefferson and Franklin. Maybe they should give their officers some clue as to what professional behavior means, and what the Constitution is.

  • Officer was right

    Really…lets call ths what it is, a set up! If Mark would have complied imeaditly to the officers request this whole situation would have never beeen escaled to the point that it was. He was purpousfuly pushing the officers buttons to get him to react. And to the below “retiered LEO’s” what happened to officer safety, didnt have that in your depaermnets uh?

  • http://hotlinks.blogspot.com/ Raven Lee

    This fucking pisses me off. I don’t care where you fall in the gun debate, or what your politics are, but if it’s LEGAL to OPEN CARRY, then it’s LEGAL to OPEN CARRY! And NO Police officer should raise a weapon and threaten to use Deadly Force against a peaceful citizen!

  • Madmike113

    I listened and read eveyones comments and see clearly both sides. LEOS are a necessity in the world and in major cities they face a lot more than giving out motor vehicle violation tickets. Gangs are prevalent and will shoot an officer in a heartbeat. The sargent saw a young man openly carrying and drew his own wepon to (possibly) defend himself just as the young man needed to carry openly in a dangerous city. After all isn’t it important to have the advantage in a gun fight? I carry because the Police can’t save me from violence. They can only try and find the violator. I can only give props to the young man though because he was beyond polite to the officer even when assulted with. continuous foul languege and rotten names being shouted at him while a weapon was being pointed at him. Usually a thug or ganster would act that way-not an officer of the law but working in a city can teach you the languagr of the city therefore the officer becomes assimilated and as violent as the people whom he protects the citizen from. I believe that just as our troops experience PTSD Police do also and should be evaluated on a very regular basis and rotated out when showing signs of civil degeneration.’ Oh how the world has changed.

  • Zbot007

    Why do none of the police in Philadelphia know their own laws? They detained the guy for over an hour…then gave him all his stuff back and told him to go about his business. Oh, that was after the cop pulls his gun out and starts treating the guy like he’s the asshole. Didn’t even want to see his permit when the guy told him several times that he has one. The cop just assumed that having a gun in the open was illegal, had NO IDEA that open carry is LEGAL in Philly with a permit. This guy is just fortunate that other responding officers knew the truth. The entire northeastern part of the US is like this, from what I can gather: cops going off half-cocked simply because THEY DON’T KNOW THE LAW! And when you try to tell them they get pissed–showing off how stupid they are by telling you you’re wrong, then proceed to tell you to “shut the fuck up.” Hell, when the guy tells the cop which statute/directive makes it legal, that just makes the cop more belligerent. What a jerk. I hope (although it’s not likely as cops in Philly can be as corrupt or stupid as they want) that this guy wins any suit brought against this officer or the department. This is not all the cops fault.

  • Jon

    Thats the type of person that makes cops look bad. I hope you take a lawsuit out on the department and go after the arresting officers job. As many people that are looking for a job im sure the could repace him with a better man he is a pittiful excuse for a human being. I am so glad I dont live there. 

  • Anonymous

    Wow try editing a little

  • Its4Deb

    Two wrongs make this ALL wrong.  They were BOTH wrong.  I suppose it’s a “Philly thing” for an LEO there, in order to gain some sort of “edge” and “start-off with a smart-off”, such as; “Junior, HEY, JUNIOR” (!?!), but look, unless an individual is driving down Ben Franklin Blvd. in an Abrams (sp?) TANK, the uniform /badge/radio etc. ALREADY AFFORDS them (LEO’s) “THE Edge” – ok??  But here it is, WRONG #2 – “junior” ACTED EXACTLY AS A JUNIOR (a HOOD) “WOULD” act…C-O-N-F-R-O-N-T-A-T-I-O-N-A-L.  Mistake of a 24 yr-old I reckon…?  Did NO ONE ever tell you, there MUST be some sort of “ORDER”, and the cops are IT, in a CIVIL society. Had Mr. Fiorino simply gagged-down that bowling-ball-sized lump of PRIDE (AKA: “chip”) of his, this thing COULD have been over in under 15 minutes…perhaps under five or six minutes, depending.  Phillie’s a busy place, things generally move quickly. Was the cop an asshole (AND a bit afraid) – sure. Did Mr. Fiorino set this whole thing up?  I don’t know, but if he didn’t, what I do know is: he’s clearly got some VERY SERIOUS lessons to learn yet, at 24. We do “NOT” ESCALATE a situation with LE in a CIVIL society. PERIOD. BOTH WRONG.  

  • Anonymous

    Has anyone heard of the post-event happenings of this event? I know this event has embarrassed the shit out of all the most respected, professional LEO’s in the city of Philly and seeing that I live in Florida and do CC ,where I legally can,and regardless of my legal right to carry in Philly, I will Always zip past the Philly exit on I-95, all because of this event and including the video of a tall LEO in that Gestapo trench-coat (including the arm patches) again threatening arrest for “Legally Open Carrying”. Why you Philly Americans put up with that has ME scared shit, and I am a 52 yo Veteran that had more than a few projectiles wiz by. Please contact your representatives, State,Local, and ask that they require ALL LEO’s to read all the laws pertaining to firearms and read them again.

  • a citizen

    The saddest part about this is that the officer had no clue about the laws he is suppose to be enforcing. How is it that he dosen’t know the laws on weather or not you can openly carry? Ignorance of the law is no excuse and that should go the same for police harassment. The officer was unprofessional from the start. It shows how well our tax dollars go into training and educating our police force.

  • Ccpoa-cim

    The police Sgt. Was wrong, however even if there is an oc law on the books I bet you the sgt. Nor any of the officers knew that. I am sure that this is the first time any of them have seen some walking down the street in this major city with an exposed firearm. Philly is not tombstone Arizona. The kid was within the law but still provoking it.