No Guns Allowed
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Thread: No Guns Allowed

  1. #1

    No Guns Allowed

    I'm traveling to Arizona and am going to Mass at St. James Roman Catholic Parish in Glendale. I know that "no gun" signs have force of law, and was wondering if anyone knew if that church had a sign, or if you knew of a resource that listed that places in Arizona that have the signs (I Googled it, but couldn't find any). I have to take a cab, so I won't have anywhere to store the pistol, if it has a sign. Thanks a ton!
    Owner, Nexus Defensive Training
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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Santa Fe Area, New Mexico
    Posts
    3,487
    Call em, throw the dice. JMHO.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)

  4. Actually...in places such as a church as you specifically mention....a NO GUNS sign only means the property owner is asserting their right to say NO GUNS.

    The only criminality that can be attached carrying in a church, big box store, convenience store comes into play if:

    1. You are discovered to be carrying
    2. You refuse to leave AFTER having been seen carrying and are asked to do so by someone in charge. Then trespassing comes into play.

    What will NOT happen is a SWAT team deploying to your location to take you into custody for ignoring a policy, which is what you are effectively doing. The MOST that would happen is an officer would show up and say "Mister Smith, the owner/manager of the property would like you to either lock your gun in your car or leave the premises" but again this would ONLY happen if the owner/manager had asked you to leave and you refused.

    How do I know? Because I have had to show up when some goober refused to leave private property after he was legally asked to do so by the person/entity in legal control of the premises. Had said goober just left, I or another officer, would never have had to show up (thereby wasting our time and by extension the time of the taxpaying public) just so the aforementioned goober could get his ten minutes of infamy and get on a Second Amendment soapbox, ironically in a state with CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY where everyone has the right to carry anyway.

    So all you're doing by ignoring a NO GUNS sign is violating the policy of a business, you are not violating the law. Concealed means concealed, and STFU about your Roscoe means STFU about your Roscoe. No one really cares, and a lot of those signs are up because insurance companies tell the businesses they have to be. The best rule of thumb is....CONCEAL it well and don't be a **** who attracts attention, and leave if you're asked to leave.

    Yes...there ARE exceptions such as nuclear power facilities, courthouses, post offices, all of which I will not go into here...but we are talking about businesses such as you mentioned.
    You can't always be safe, but you can always be dangerous.

  5. #4
    No Guns AllowedNo Guns AllowedNo Guns Allowed

    Frisco, there's gonna be quite a few to disagree with you...

    I don't, I agree completely.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by corneileous View Post
    No Guns AllowedNo Guns AllowedNo Guns Allowed

    Frisco, there's gonna be quite a few to disagree with you...

    I don't, I agree completely.
    I spent 27 years wearing a badge. I am used to people disagreeing with me. I have yet to lose a minutes worth of sleep over it. The reality is that violating a policy is not violating a law. Hence the trespass attachment if one fails to leave. That's about the sum of it. I mentioned the exceptions, but we aren't talking about government entities. Personally...I place a much higher value on the ass of a good citizen than I do on the value of a corporate policy that diminishes a person's ability to effectively and lawfully defend themselves or their family.

    AND the reality is, the vast majority of people walk the planet with their heads up their butts and wouldn't notice a 500 Magnum with an 8" barrel poking out from under a Hawaiian shirt anyway. They are too busy facebooking and twitting or whatever they do on their phones.

    Conceal that Roscoe and move on. The chances of being "made" are remote in the extreme.
    You can't always be safe, but you can always be dangerous.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco85132 View Post
    I spent 27 years wearing a badge. I am used to people disagreeing with me. I have yet to lose a minutes worth of sleep over it. The reality is that violating a policy is not violating a law. Hence the trespass attachment if one fails to leave. That's about the sum of it. I mentioned the exceptions, but we aren't talking about government entities. Personally...I place a much higher value on the ass of a good citizen than I do on the value of a corporate policy that diminishes a person's ability to effectively and lawfully defend themselves or their family.

    AND the reality is, the vast majority of people walk the planet with their heads up their butts and wouldn't notice a 500 Magnum with an 8" barrel poking out from under a Hawaiian shirt anyway. They are too busy facebooking and twitting or whatever they do on their phones.

    Conceal that Roscoe and move on. The chances of being "made" are remote in the extreme.
    Well said.

  8. I look at it this way...it's not even how big of a gun you're carrying and trying to conceal, it is more of a matter of how you carry yourself as to whether you're likely to "get made".

    My best friend who is not a cop, but an avid shooter and competitor, is always amazed at how fast I can pick out someone who is carrying. The obvious giveaways are the shoot me first vests and the tacticool clothing with TACTICAL and 5.11 all over them. You see some goober decked out in his five-leb'ms, sleeved out, and trying to look operatory....you know he's packing. You see the guy wearing the shoot me first in 110f heat...yeah...he's toting a roscoe. No biggy. Duly noted. Those are the obvious tells.

    The "I don't know how to carry my gun" tells are next. Usually it's a guy carrying in a cheap nylon gun show special holster that would print under a raincoat. The holster doesn't hold close to the body and it's flopping all around on the 1" dress belt that isn't suitable to keep pants up, let alone hold the weight of a pistol. Those are too easy. The good news is that his gun isn't a danger to anyone but himself because he's never going to be able to get it out of the holster on the same day he needed it, let alone in the same moment he might need it.

    Then you have body language tells. The relatively new gun carrier, or guy who isn't really competent is always checking the location of his gun to "make sure it's there". Whether they realize it or not, they are ALWAYS putting their hand on the grip or patting the holster for reassurance. Then, if they aren't doing that, they walk favoring the side their gun is on. They always seem to be trying to put the gun side away from people. There is nothing necessarily wrong with this, but to someone who knows the cues, it is a neon sign. Then you have the "clamping the arm tightly to the side over the gun" guy. He has his arm rigidly covering the location of the gun and not moving it...ever. I like guys like these. They are easy peasy to spot instantaneously.

    The guys who are harder to spot are the ones who dress smartly to their gun. Personally, I eschew ANYTHING that has TACTICAL on it. I own two "concealment vests" from 5.11 but the only time I ever wear them is when I am shooting an IDPA match, or a BUG match where all my work is from concealment. I never wear them at any other time. Mostly because I don't like them as an article of clothing but they scream GUN GUN GUN. If I am at our place in Prescott and I am wearing a vest because it's cold...it is a Woolrich or Carhart vest over a good plain flannel shirt. Nothing "tactical" about it.

    Funny thing the Woolrich and Carhart vests conceal the hell out of the Smith 629 Mountain Gun or Glock 20 I usually carry up there, even though they put me at a severe disadvantage because they don't say TACTICAL on them...lol. (We have the occasional bear, mountain lion, and coyotes on our property, however I am not really concerned about a black bear or mountain lion...mostly I carry it for feral dogs and javelina). My "tactical" pants are Wrangler cargo pants with the "tech pocket" and comfortable hiking shoes or boots. I look a whole lot more like a middle aged gray haired hippy type in my "get back to nature" clothes than a retired cop with a gun he knows how to use a whole lot better than most folks.

    The only "tell" I have is my SWAT shield tattoo and my 1* Blue Line tatt on my forearms that I got in a moment of youthful exuberance. But to be fair, only other officers really know what it is. I have been asked a couple of times if I used to be a Navy SEAL or Infantry by people who notice the eagle on the tatt and mistake it for a SEAL eagle tattoo or a First Infantry patch, to which I ALWAYS say "No".

    My gun, my spare mags, my Spyderco folder, and my flashlight are all hidden. The only thing about me you would notice is that I am 6'4" and 290lbs, so I am not exactly subtle...but nothing about me screams GUN GUN GUN.

    In the summer, especially in the valley when I am not in Prescott...I wear Wrangler cargo shorts, a cotton t-shirt with a cotton short sleeve shirt over top of that. It's the "summer uniform" for LOTS of folks in the valley. None of it is "tacticool" but eminently practical for keeping the sun and melanoma off as well as effectively concealing a pistol.

    This way, I ignore all those pesky NO GUNS policy signs and not worry about "being made" just because I do my best not to stick out like a ***** at Disneyland and announce to the world I am carrying. Hide in plain sight.

    Just my not so humble opinion.
    You can't always be safe, but you can always be dangerous.

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