Arizona Beware!!!
Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: Arizona Beware!!!

  1. #1

    Arizona Beware!!!

    I saw the story on Harold Fish a couple of weeks ago. It made me sick to my stomach. I've attached the link to his defense page. You can also look up other details online. I saw post conviction interviews with jury members and their comments were alarming. One juror said that she thought he was guilty because of his choice of caliber (10mm) and bullet type (hollow point). She basically felt because he used a 10mm with hollow points that he must have went out looking to kill someone.

    Harold Fish Defense

  2.   
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Honolulu, HI & Salt Lake City, UT
    Posts
    2,797
    Quote Originally Posted by {TEX**Hawaii(( View Post
    I saw the story on Harold Fish a couple of weeks ago. It made me sick to my stomach. I've attached the link to his defense page. You can also look up other details online. I saw post conviction interviews with jury members and their comments were alarming. One juror said that she thought he was guilty because of his choice of caliber (10mm) and bullet type (hollow point). She basically felt because he used a 10mm with hollow points that he must have went out looking to kill someone.

    Harold Fish Defense

    This is very sad. Members of the general public couldn't figure out that the 10mm is only 1mm larger than the commonly used 9mm. I'm thinking it's based on the fear of the unknown. Not many people hear about the 10mm, so as a lay member of the general public, they may have come to the conclusion that it's a very powerful cartridge and has no purpose other than to "kill someone". This is a good reason to evaluate what kind of firearm and ammo you use for SD. Everyone has their opinion of what's a good SD firearm. This case illustrates why I carefully select the firearms I use for SD.



    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Green Valley (Henderson) NV
    Posts
    853
    Quote Originally Posted by Glock Fan View Post
    This is very sad. Members of the general public couldn't figure out that the 10mm is only 1mm larger than the commonly used 9mm. I'm thinking it's based on the fear of the unknown. Not many people hear about the 10mm, so as a lay member of the general public, they may have come to the conclusion that it's a very powerful cartridge and has no purpose other than to "kill someone". This is a good reason to evaluate what kind of firearm and ammo you use for SD. Everyone has their opinion of what's a good SD firearm. This case illustrates why I carefully select the firearms I use for SD.
    I guess I need to be careful with my Para P-12.45, S&W 4516-1 and CS45 since they discharge a 11.43mm bullet. A good defense attorney needs to be able to play myth buster with the prosecution and jury when defending a justifiable homicide in court.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  5. Harold Fish did not help himself out either. He basically could not remember exactley what the threat was, he had a couple different versions. Secondly, I don't think his attorney was all that great.

    Channel Investigation Discovery had a 1 hour show on how Harold Fish was convicted in court. It was worth watching....

    There was a couple of points that were very interesting in it. One point was they portrayed his gun (they showed a Kimber) a 10mm and actually got the jury to believe it was way more gun than he needed to carry. They played it was more gun than the average person needed or carried, in thier words "It was overkill on his choice of gun). I could have possibly beaten that claim pretty easy, MCSO allows that claiber as a primary duty weapon. In fact, my partner carries that caliber on duty and off duty! One thing I noticed was Fish's attorney refered to his gun as a "weapon" numerous times, Firearm would have been a much beter choice of a word to use to describe the gun that Fish carried. Michael Anthony was shown as a defense witness and if I remeber correctly he used the term Firearm when mentioning about guns in a positive way, he used the term "weapon" when mentioning about a gun in a suspects hands (non-positive way).

    A second interesting thing was they interviewed the jury foreman and one person from the jury, They stated in thier words that they had great concerns on the rounds that he used, The Fereral Hydra-Shock Hollow-Points!!!! The juror staed "These bullets are designed to inflick as much damage as they can to the human body". "They are made to KILL someone, that is it". The entire jury looked at the ammo this way.... Not good. In fact, Hollow Points are designed to "STOP" a threat, not to kill! The one thing that was not mentioned in the show was that these same bullets (Hollow Points) are issed by every police dept in the county. If I remeber correctly they (prosecution) used out-side expert witnesses (out side experts are generally someone not in Law Enforcement, they will generally say what the prosecution wants) to testify on the ammo. If they would have used "Inside" experts I believe they would have had a hard time playing his gun and ammo as a bad thing.

    The last thing they dicussed was they (Jury) claimed that they based thier entire judgement on the circumstances that revovled around the time that the incident occured. They did not and were not allowed to use any thing from eithers past. Mainly because neither of them knew this at the time.

    It was a very interesting show to see, I hear a lot say this "I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6". Not sure I totally agree with this. There are a lot of people that think or belive the same as these jurors did. Not every juror is a gun person or even if they are they have no idea of what is actually invovled in a gunfight. There is a whole lot more than just the bullets flying.......

    Who ever has taken my class, in your handbook I handed out, on page 15 (or so) are 4 points you should be able to do if you are going to carry a gun in a self defense way! 3 of those four where mentioned above!!!!!

    John

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    The Heart of Dixie
    Posts
    1,225

    Most of you know, but for those that don't,

    In most handgun arenas a "full house" 10mm like the one originally designed by Norma, is now considered a hunting round. Mainly because it compares closely to the power .41 Magnum. A "full house" 10mm round hits much harder than a 9mm round mainly because it has the velocities of a 9mm bullet with a heavier weight, i.e 165 to 200 grain bullet weights.The watered down 10mm that Federal loaded for the FBI back in the 80's turned out to be a poor performer. It was a 10mm lite or medium load. It was scrapped and the FBI went back to 9mm's. The "full" 10mm round was deemed too powerful because of over penetration concerns. Some of these concerns were warranted. So the .40 S&W or 10mm short, rose out of the ashes and the rest is history....

    I own and sometimes carry a 10mm Glock and load it with 165gr. Cor-Bon JHP's. I figure lighter bullet, less penetration. BUT, enough velocity creating more than enough energy needed to effectively STOP a threat. The juror thing is very disturbing and scary!!! I may have to re-think carrying my Glock20 when outside of the house and not on duty. May buy a Glock21 for that... but then,.. would have to re-qualify at the range and go through the paperwork again,.... nah... I'll just carry my .40 Glocks when I'm not being a weekend warrior

    Just fyi...
    Cor-Bon 10mm 165gr. JHP = 1250 FPS/573ftlbs.
    Cor-Bon 10mm 180gr. "Hunting" = 1300 FPS/676ftlbs.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Quantcast