Posted Signs
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Thread: Posted Signs

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Drakes Creek, AR
    Posts
    371

    Posted Signs

    There seems to be some discussion going on as to what posted signs are leagal and what are not.

    From what I am understanding from those that seem to be ALOT smarter than I am that the little signs with a gun and a red line running thru them, are NOT leagal signs as stated in AR law 5-73-306-(19)A

    No license to carry a concealed handgun issued pursuant to this subchapter authorizes any person to carry a concealed handgun into:
    (19) (A) Any place at the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of the place by placing at each entrance to the place a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten feet (10˘) that “carrying a handgun is prohibited”.

    The interest observation is that the quote; "carrying a handgun is prohibited" has to be on the sign as it is surrounded by quotation marks and thus must be exact.

    Then come into play, the LEO who doesnt really understand the law and if you are in an establishment that has the little gun with the red line thru it and you refuse to leave, the cops will get you for tresspass, but you will have a good chance at beating it in court providing you have a good lawyer who understands the law as it was entended and written.

    So what do you think? I for one will ignore the no gun signs unless they state as in the law above, "carrying a handgun is prohibited".
    DrLewall
    "Doc"
    Drakes Creeks, AR
    www.kiltsrock.com
    "A gun unloaded and cocked aint good for nuttin!"--Rooster Cogburn

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Inland Empire
    Posts
    394

    Question Good question.

    I'd bet there are as many 'correct answers' as there are federal, state, counties or city codes in the U.S. The RCW for 'Off-Limit' any gun or (any) weapons carry are IMHO pretty cut 'N dry, but that's WA State. Would I enter a store that had a 'no-guns allowed inside' sign on it if I were going against that sign the moment I entered? Maybe, depends, but it would spark my curiosity. I'd eye-ball the door-frame to make sure a metal-detector had not been emplaced, and if so what it detects, large metal objects or spare change that sets of bells and whistles with every customer going in or out! 2 minutes outside 'window shopping' & watching customers come & go answers that question without a need to see any blue-prints. Too much noise for me to even bother myself patronizing any place that sounds like San-Quintan, CA on visiting hours! Yes, I have visited some inmates there; most doing hard time for booze/dope, driving offenses or firearms 3-strikes screw-ups. Better have a legit property-loss agent at the door who is authorized to touch let alone search me if that were the case. If it looked cool I may enter, making sure nothing was obviating what I was/or wasn't concealing & chat with the owner as to why he/she has that sign up front, my fall-back being: "Wouldn't it be better to have a sober, honest and willing to help you out CC bearing patron buying up your goodies if an armed robber busted in and started gun-play?" "Sorry sign say 'No guns allowed', so what gives?" Asta la bagels baby! There ARE other places to shop that don't enforce laws made up by owners but maybe not even legal in a court of law.
    Inability to speak anything close to English would clue me in to change the subject, then maybe call my local LEO's front-desk and ask why that joint had that 'Rob Us!' sign displayed, or go online and check out any clauses on their listed business license that made them a legal exception. Is it legal and what would happen to me if I entered the place with a completely hidden pistol, left 10 minutes later with it never being even known I was packing. Nothing! Then the next question goes: "What if I had to pull, point or use a weapon to protect my life in this gun-free establishment, would you protect me as your sign says I sure can't the moment I stroll in!" "No you are on your own Mistah, my sign also tells that to criminals too so what you make big fuss over, my sign clearly says that they no bring guns in here either!" OK, so now I am a nice fat sheep in a field where wolves maybe prowling the joint. In true open public shopping areas most times the owner would appreciate the help if I prevented the place from getting jacked, the employees or customers from getting gunned down and if it is truly private property then I better not have any gun and all that store's customers better have some form of personal invitation to shop there, or are they not trespassing on true private property? It is not private if anyone can come & go as they please. I would also check to find out if the owner had a CCW permit and ask the vendor what made him/her exempt from their own laws? I don't need any store, they need my patronage to make money to eat/pay bills, etc., so if the sign is just up there (I suspect) just to make other patrons feel safer from us 'dangerous armed vigilante CC types', and that is what a LOT of the significance behind that sign fools customers into buying, a smoke free zone is as good as a gun free one I guess, which really means it's just a sham that lures in foolish sheeple who feel safer assuming no one would dare disobey a sign in red & white so wear your best jewelry and carry lots of cash when you show up to that 'very safe' shop. When in fact unless there is a P & S officer/rent-a-cop security armed & badge wearing heavy @ the door, that establishment is yelling, 'Come get all you want and do it in under 5 minutes because no one in here can or will stop you, and you'll be across a state line by the time the LEO's run the CC tapes!' In 7 years of being all over this town, I have yet to see that sign except on areas where it means not only guns but any weapon: federal land, court-houses, jails, alcohol consuming joints or schools (there are a few more like psych hospitals and (some) banks, where pulling any weapon out for any reason is a wrong reason. But WTF do I know? I would love to hear other's takes on their a/o's anti-gun sign vendors. Oh yeah, just as a final act of legal payback for displaying a nickel & dime store sign that is not legal in my town I would e-mail, FAX or write to every gun shop, hunting club, range or Fairchild AFB public relations, just to start off with a letter/e-mail/FAX of grievance all referenced to current legal statues as to why that sign is BS & their members should not bother even going there as it is IMHO not safe. I also have a quick laugh @ those signs posted on private land & homes proclaiming "Any trespassers will be shot on sight, any survivors will be shot again!" I have seen those around in the back-woods Spokane county, U can buy 'em in (some) stores here and online all over, and think I may as well put a sign on my door that proclaims: 'I can not wait to go to jail after a long expensive court case I know I will lose, I can't wait to pay you (or your NOK) a LOT of my cash when I try that sign out on you when you pull into my non-gated driveway past a nonexistent security gun-toting guard, lost of course and just politely asking for directions.' Shake & bake macho signs IMHO attract more problems not deter them whether it be on a store, a home or a farm. Real ones are normally E-Z to spot as the fine print @ the bottom goes: Per USC codes... & State laws..." The ones I see with every trip to a V.A. hospital or go shopping on local Fiarchild AFB. Those I take VERY seriously.
    Respects & regards on a thread I am looking 4-ward 2 following,

    Canis-Lupus :y:
    Last edited by Canis-Lupus; 05-23-2008 at 08:42 PM.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Drakes Creek, AR
    Posts
    371
    I know what you mean when it comes to the "Tresspassers will be shot" signs! :icon_lol: Be warned tho Canis, next time I am in Spokane, you and I are gonna hook up and do a meal somewhere, my treat! :knipoog:

    as for signage, I feel that any place of bussines that posts any kind of no gun sign does not and will not deserve my patronage. Some stores have been known to post sign BUT they were posted INSIDE behind the register..you're already inside and as you are cashing out, you notice it..leagally, you are safe as the sign was not posted properly as per the stauate.

    I am sure some will patronize a store, and many wont, that has that little sign of a gun with a red line thru it and no words stating that hand gun are prohibited, being an illegal sign as per the statuate, then the gun owner would be ok legally, as per AR law.
    DrLewall
    "Doc"
    Drakes Creeks, AR
    www.kiltsrock.com
    "A gun unloaded and cocked aint good for nuttin!"--Rooster Cogburn

  5. #4
    Doc,

    I agree. Now for another point: if they see your gun, then you have not lived up to your responsibility to hide it from public view at all times.

    Just a small point. The business owner should research the laws as much as the CHL holders have to in order to stay legal at all times.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Drakes Creek, AR
    Posts
    371
    :y: Grumpy!
    DrLewall
    "Doc"
    Drakes Creeks, AR
    www.kiltsrock.com
    "A gun unloaded and cocked aint good for nuttin!"--Rooster Cogburn

  7. From another forum.

    ARCCA Forum :: Arkansas Concealed Carry Association Discussions :: No Gun Signs

    ARCCA works closely with the Arkansas Legislature specifically dealing with the Concealed Carry Statutes.

  8. We had a local KFC/Taco Bell that decided to become a GFZ and put up 'No Guns' stickers on the doors. I have not been there since, not even through the drive-thru. And neither have all the on-duty and off-duty cops that used to practically live there. I have to wonder how much money they have lost as a result of their decision??
    Not to mention all the free "protection" provided by the cops just being there.
    "The only thing necessary for the Triumph of Evil. is for Good Men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

  9. #8
    A letter to the franchise owner explaining why they no longer get your business and others who support liberalized gun laws, is a strong incentive to remove the sign. You might also thank them for the opportunity of getting out of the rut of eating there every day and that you have found two or three other restaurants with great food and service that have no illconceived restrictions on their customers. Then get about 25 - 50 signatures at the bottom of the letter.

    Sometimes the signs come down.

  10. LOL!

    Well, I didn't eat there EVERY day, but I WAS a regular. And we did voice our concerns with the manager. His response was to mumble some gibberish about "corporate policy decision" or something like that.

    So somehow, I think we would have to go much higher than him with any petition.

    I have not seen this at EVERY Taco Bell and/or KFC though, so I'm not so sure I believe that "corporate policy decision". OR maybe the rest of them are not following the rules the way corporate wants, I don't know.

    But I do know this: If they have those signs up, they won't get my business - or money! And I DO let them know I am boycotting their business and why.
    "The only thing necessary for the Triumph of Evil. is for Good Men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

  11. #10
    Also present them with a legal "looking" document stating that they will support your family if you are injured or killed while in their restaurant or on their parking lot as a result of the fact that they have deprived you of your right to legally defend yourself.
    See if that works.

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