Lowes Home Improvement Stores and their anti gun policies - Page 18
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Thread: Lowes Home Improvement Stores and their anti gun policies

  1. #171
    ezkl2230 Guest
    Our local stores in Grand Rapids, MI, don't have any signs. Of course, I also CC.

  2.   
  3. #172
    ezkl2230 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare45 View Post
    Any business can ask you to leave... they are assuming all responsibility for your safety while in store.
    I wish that were the really the case. I have had numerous business owners tell me in these forums that just because they tell us that we can't carry doesn't mean that they assume any responsibility for the safety of their customers. They want it both ways. You can't carry, but I'm not responsible for your safety either. After all, the additional security would drive up my cost of doing business, and who's going to pay for those additional costs? Not me, they say. Their outlook is, if I'm taking chances with my safety, then you can take that chance right along with me since you're doing business with me.

  4. #173
    ezkl2230 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by el maestro View Post
    You can be asked to leave any private property for any or no reason whatsoever. Lowe's is a store and yes it is private property.
    I have been arguing this one for a very long time.

    Businesses are not private property in the same way that your home and everything bounded by your property line is private property. This is particularly true of publicly owned businesses. Businesses are places of public accommodation and commerce, and they are legally bound to recognize the civil rights of their customers. Like my daddy always says, 50% of the battle is already won: they don't have to like it, they just have to do it.

    But this is where the law get schizophrenic, and that needs to change. The Bill of Rights is almost entirely about our civil rights. Whether the entity is a business or a gov't office, none of them has the right to infringe on our civil rights. Free speech? Uh uh. Race? Gender? Nope. Religion? Hang a big NO on that one. But the Second Amendment - oh, better wait a minute. That issue is too emotional. The result? A hodge podge of government mandated and individually declared no carry zones that makes carry very difficult. The consequences? Aurora, NYC, Virginia Tech - the list goes on. There have been more than 240 incidents that have led to over 700 casualties just in school zones and churches. Throw in malls, gas stations, pharmacies, and all the other places of business that have declared themselves to be gun free, and the number is astronomical. Oh, but the police can protect us. Tell that to the seven innocent bystanders in New York who were shot by the police while taking out one bad guy. For all the fears about liability, I have yet to find any records of instances in which private citizens stopping bad guys with their legally-carried firearms increased the casualty count by shooting innocent bystanders. According to an article published in Newsweek about a year ago, you are 2 1/2 times more likely to be accidentally shot by a cop than by a civilian using his or her legally-carried firearm in self defense.

    The fact is that hysteria is no match for solid evidence. Business owners who prohibit carry on their premises are responding to hysteria - not objective data.

    I am still working to get a bill passed in Michigan that I call the Hoven Self-Defense Act of 2012. It is named for a pharmacist in Benton Harbor, MI, who stopped two gun-toting bad guys from robbing the Walgreen's Pharmacy for which he worked, after which he was fired for violating the company's no-firearms policy. The fact that the two bad guys physically abused and fired on the store employees meant nothing to Walgreen's; the employees were supposed to submit to the demands of the bad guys, and hope to be alive to talk with the police after it was all said and done.

    Sorry, that just doesn't work.

    The bill I am working to get passed states, "Except as provided by law, the right to carry a firearm for the defense of one’s self shall not be infringed by an employer, commercial entity, place of public accommodation or education." Existing law states that employers have the right to prohibit their employees from wearing or displaying some things openly, but it also states that an employer may not completely prohibit the wearing or display of those things. An employer would have the right to say that he doesn't want an employee to OC, but it would be illegal for the employer to prohibit CC. Regardless, the accommodation of civil rights is the law of the land, even for "private property businesses." The Second Amendment right to carry is a civil right; it's time to stop pretending otherwise.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by ezkl2230 View Post
    I have been arguing this one for a very long time.

    Businesses are not private property in the same way that your home and everything bounded by your property line is private property. This is particularly true of publicly owned businesses. Businesses are places of public accommodation and commerce, and they are legally bound to recognize the civil rights of their customers. Like my daddy always says, 50% of the battle is already won: they don't have to like it, they just have to do it.

    But this is where the law get schizophrenic, and that needs to change. The Bill of Rights is almost entirely about our civil rights. Whether the entity is a business or a gov't office, none of them has the right to infringe on our civil rights. Free speech? Uh uh. Race? Gender? Nope. Religion? Hang a big NO on that one. But the Second Amendment - oh, better wait a minute. That issue is too emotional. The result? A hodge podge of government mandated and individually declared no carry zones that makes carry very difficult. The consequences? Aurora, NYC, Virginia Tech - the list goes on. There have been more than 240 incidents that have led to over 700 casualties just in school zones and churches. Throw in malls, gas stations, pharmacies, and all the other places of business that have declared themselves to be gun free, and the number is astronomical. Oh, but the police can protect us. Tell that to the seven innocent bystanders in New York who were shot by the police while taking out one bad guy. For all the fears about liability, I have yet to find any records of instances in which private citizens stopping bad guys with their legally-carried firearms increased the casualty count by shooting innocent bystanders. According to an article published in Newsweek about a year ago, you are 2 1/2 times more likely to be accidentally shot by a cop than by a civilian using his or her legally-carried firearm in self defense.

    The fact is that hysteria is no match for solid evidence. Business owners who prohibit carry on their premises are responding to hysteria - not objective data.

    I am still working to get a bill passed in Michigan that I call the Hoven Self-Defense Act of 2012. It is named for a pharmacist in Benton Harbor, MI, who stopped two gun-toting bad guys from robbing the Walgreen's Pharmacy for which he worked, after which he was fired for violating the company's no-firearms policy. The fact that the two bad guys physically abused and fired on the store employees meant nothing to Walgreen's; the employees were supposed to submit to the demands of the bad guys, and hope to be alive to talk with the police after it was all said and done.

    Sorry, that just doesn't work.

    The bill I am working to get passed states, "Except as provided by law, the right to carry a firearm for the defense of one’s self shall not be infringed by an employer, commercial entity, place of public accommodation or education." Existing law states that employers have the right to prohibit their employees from wearing or displaying some things openly, but it also states that an employer may not completely prohibit the wearing or display of those things. An employer would have the right to say that he doesn't want an employee to OC, but it would be illegal for the employer to prohibit CC. Regardless, the accommodation of civil rights is the law of the land, even for "private property businesses." The Second Amendment right to carry is a civil right; it's time to stop pretending otherwise.
    That is one of the best, thoughtful, insightful, and rational statements I have read here about our Second Amendment AND Civil Rights. Thank you for the clarity also.

    All we really need, however, is a President that will appoint an Attorney General that will back up, with a Statement of Verification, the 2nd Amendment. A statement that says we don't need anymore laws, bills, local rules and exceptions, etc. on carrying of firearms. The President and Attorney General both need to confirm that the U.S. Constitution...ALL OF IT....will be obeyed under their administration, and henceforth. That will eliminate all of this bickering and local B.S. that hinders us.

  6. #175
    No problems here at Lowe's either, then again...

    I usually don't walk through the double electric doors, with my right arm extended as high as it will reach, jumping up and down as if on a pogo stick, screaming... Looky here, looky here, look at my fashion statement!

    The only attention I want in a Lowe's store is, a good looking busty sales associate personally walking me around to find what I'm after. Followed by a better looking busty check out gal that asks, "did you find everything you were looking for Mr. Menace"?
    I think, therefore I am...

    <the Menace>

  7. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezkl2230 View Post
    I have been arguing this one for a very long time.

    Businesses are not private property in the same way that your home and everything bounded by your property line is private property. This is particularly true of publicly owned businesses. Businesses are places of public accommodation and commerce, and they are legally bound to recognize the civil rights of their customers.

    Business owners who prohibit carry on their premises are responding to hysteria - not objective data.

    I am still working to get a bill passed in Michigan that I call the Hoven Self-Defense Act of 2012. It is named for a pharmacist in Benton Harbor, MI, who stopped two gun-toting bad guys from robbing the Walgreen's Pharmacy for which he worked, after which he was fired for violating the company's no-firearms policy.
    You're absolutely wrong on this. Overwhelming case law. As a business owner I'm not violating your civil rights. Civil Rights, as in the Civil Rights Act of 1964, prohibits discrimination against protected groups. I can't discriminate on the basis of race, religion, gender, handicap, etc. It ended unequal application of voter registration requirements and racial segregation in schools, at the workplace and by facilities that served the general public ("public accommodations"). Gun owners are not a protected group under the civil rights act. Read it.

    My prohibition of firearms in the workplace is not out of hysteria. It's to reduce comparable or contributory negligence claims against me should me or my business be sued by the victim of a crime. Sounds crazy right? In this crazy world of litigation it actually makes a difference. There is no statutory requirement that I protect an employee or client. My insurance policy contains a provision that, as a requirement for coverage to remain in effect, I must prohibit weapons. So it's in the employee handbook. Not because I'm hysterical but because it's a business decision. There was a time when I put it to a vote among employees. They overwhelmingly wanted a no-firearms policy. Now maybe they're hysterical, I don't know and don't care. My priority isn't easing their fear of guns. Again, it's a business decision. I don't want a productive employee to quit just because they're afraid of the employee carrying his firearm. For me the bottom line is more important than this topic. And that's how one becomes successful. Every single decision we make from morning to bedtime is based on the question "is this financially good for the company... and for me as the owner?"

    My business is not a public place. A store, even one that is publicly owned, by legal definition is a private corporation, owned by it's shareholders, not the government, not the general populace. It is subject to the policies enacted by management to the extent they don't violate CIVIL RIGHTS. You also have no Fitst Amendment right in any store, mall or my business. If you settle in and start lecturing about politics you'll be asked to leave. If you don't you may be arrested for trespass... even if that mall is part of a publicly owned chain of malls. That doesn't mean the general public owns them, it merely means that the public has the option of buying stock in the company under United States Securities law. I'm not violating anyone's second amendment rights. They have free will. They can exercise that free will on true public property... sidewalks, parks, etc. But on privately owned property the law is absolutely on my side.

    Now I feel bad for that pharmacist. He did a brave thing. But if he violated my company policy he would have to go. I can't have employees deciding which policies they'll follow and which they'll ignore. I have to be able to trust they will act as directed. It's called insubordination and if fired for it one can't even collect unemployment benefits as the loss of job was a direct result of failure to follow an order, policy or protocol. If the practice of pharmacy is too dangerous there's always barber school. Free will. He chooses to be a pharmacist.

    You need to grasp the differences between protections guaranteed by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and constitutional amendments (1st & 2nd) as in the bill of rights. They are two entirely different things. Specifically what sections of what laws does your bill expect to change? How will you overcome the lobby of the chamber of commerce and other groups who have those capitalist senators in their pocket? It's an uphill fight. Probably impossible to win as we'll never submit to being controlled by employees or clients.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  8. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by ezkl2230 View Post
    I have been arguing this one for a very long time.

    Businesses are not private property in the same way that your home and everything bounded by your property line is private property. This is particularly true of publicly owned businesses. Businesses are places of public accommodation and commerce, and they are legally bound to recognize the civil rights of their customers. Like my daddy always says, 50% of the battle is already won: they don't have to like it, they just have to do it.

    But this is where the law get schizophrenic, and that needs to change. The Bill of Rights is almost entirely about our civil rights. Whether the entity is a business or a gov't office, none of them has the right to infringe on our civil rights. Free speech? Uh uh. Race? Gender? Nope. Religion? Hang a big NO on that one. But the Second Amendment - oh, better wait a minute. That issue is too emotional. The result? A hodge podge of government mandated and individually declared no carry zones that makes carry very difficult. The consequences? Aurora, NYC, Virginia Tech - the list goes on. There have been more than 240 incidents that have led to over 700 casualties just in school zones and churches. Throw in malls, gas stations, pharmacies, and all the other places of business that have declared themselves to be gun free, and the number is astronomical. Oh, but the police can protect us. Tell that to the seven innocent bystanders in New York who were shot by the police while taking out one bad guy. For all the fears about liability, I have yet to find any records of instances in which private citizens stopping bad guys with their legally-carried firearms increased the casualty count by shooting innocent bystanders. According to an article published in Newsweek about a year ago, you are 2 1/2 times more likely to be accidentally shot by a cop than by a civilian using his or her legally-carried firearm in self defense.

    The fact is that hysteria is no match for solid evidence. Business owners who prohibit carry on their premises are responding to hysteria - not objective data.

    I am still working to get a bill passed in Michigan that I call the Hoven Self-Defense Act of 2012. It is named for a pharmacist in Benton Harbor, MI, who stopped two gun-toting bad guys from robbing the Walgreen's Pharmacy for which he worked, after which he was fired for violating the company's no-firearms policy. The fact that the two bad guys physically abused and fired on the store employees meant nothing to Walgreen's; the employees were supposed to submit to the demands of the bad guys, and hope to be alive to talk with the police after it was all said and done.

    Sorry, that just doesn't work.

    The bill I am working to get passed states, "Except as provided by law, the right to carry a firearm for the defense of one’s self shall not be infringed by an employer, commercial entity, place of public accommodation or education." Existing law states that employers have the right to prohibit their employees from wearing or displaying some things openly, but it also states that an employer may not completely prohibit the wearing or display of those things. An employer would have the right to say that he doesn't want an employee to OC, but it would be illegal for the employer to prohibit CC. Regardless, the accommodation of civil rights is the law of the land, even for "private property businesses." The Second Amendment right to carry is a civil right; it's time to stop pretending otherwise.
    Where have you been all my life? May I copy and paste this post to the "no guns signs" thread? I have been making this point there and was quickly outnumbered by the private property argument. I suspect they're all business owners. I finally dropped out of the discussion as it was going nowhere. What right do we have as people who wish to defend ourselves to trump the rights of those idiot business owners who believe they are safer if armed personnel on their property are criminals. Anyway, I'd really like to copy this to that thread as you stated it much more eloquently than I did. If not, please jump over there and join in.
    All The Best
    Gunz

  9. #178
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    Houston Metro Area, Texas
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    A business owner can restrict entry to their property for carrying a gun, you bet, you will not have to worry about that from me no gun, no money, will take my business elsewhere.

  10. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8gunz View Post
    Where have you been all my life? May I copy and paste this post to the "no guns signs" thread? I have been making this point there and was quickly outnumbered by the private property argument. I suspect they're all business owners. I finally dropped out of the discussion as it was going nowhere. What right do we have as people who wish to defend ourselves to trump the rights of those idiot business owners who believe they are safer if armed personnel on their property are criminals. Anyway, I'd really like to copy this to that thread as you stated it much more eloquently than I did. If not, please jump over there and join in.
    Idiot business owners? I own the business. I built it. I'm able to retire in my 40's because of it. Who's the idiot?

    You have no rights on my property. Thank God I live in a country where I can still throw junior out by his ear. Don't like my policy? Take your business or employment elsewhere. If someone wants to question my employment policies I would fire them purely on principal. THAT is what makes America great. Those who threaten to withhold their business believe it makes a difference. But it really doesn't. We don't care. If you only do business with people who stick their neck out for you then choice is limited as most companies have a no-weapon policy. They may not have a sign posted but they can still throw you out for any reason not protected by the Civil Rights Act of 1964. And persons exercising their second amendment rights, or first amendment rights for that matter aren't protected by civil rights law.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  11. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    Idiot business owners? I own the business. I built it. I'm able to retire in my 40's because of it. Who's the idiot?
    I dunno. I spent 26 years in the navy and was able to retire in my 30's. As if this has anything at all to do with forbidding law abiding gun owners from carrying firearms on PRIVATE property.

    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    You have no rights on my property.
    The hubris of the almighty land owner. I have all the God given rights I had before I stepped on your land sir. Many of them which are NOT protected by the constitution. It would be quite impossible to create a document that will cover every conceivable situation. You believe as you will. I will continue to work at getting local law makers to get those stupid signs out of windows. If the business owners don't like it, they can always "GO SOMEPLACE ELSE".
    All The Best
    Gunz

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