Lowes Home Improvement Stores and their anti gun policies - Page 21
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Thread: Lowes Home Improvement Stores and their anti gun policies

  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by ezkl2230 View Post
    I have been arguing this one for a very long time.

    Businesses are not private property in the same way that your home and everything bounded by your property line is private property. This is particularly true of publicly owned businesses. Businesses are places of public accommodation and commerce, and they are legally bound to recognize the civil rights of their customers. Like my daddy always says, 50% of the battle is already won: they don't have to like it, they just have to do it.

    But this is where the law get schizophrenic, and that needs to change. The Bill of Rights is almost entirely about our civil rights. Whether the entity is a business or a gov't office, none of them has the right to infringe on our civil rights. Free speech? Uh uh. Race? Gender? Nope. Religion? Hang a big NO on that one. But the Second Amendment - oh, better wait a minute. That issue is too emotional. The result? A hodge podge of government mandated and individually declared no carry zones that makes carry very difficult. The consequences? Aurora, NYC, Virginia Tech - the list goes on. There have been more than 240 incidents that have led to over 700 casualties just in school zones and churches. Throw in malls, gas stations, pharmacies, and all the other places of business that have declared themselves to be gun free, and the number is astronomical. Oh, but the police can protect us. Tell that to the seven innocent bystanders in New York who were shot by the police while taking out one bad guy. For all the fears about liability, I have yet to find any records of instances in which private citizens stopping bad guys with their legally-carried firearms increased the casualty count by shooting innocent bystanders. According to an article published in Newsweek about a year ago, you are 2 1/2 times more likely to be accidentally shot by a cop than by a civilian using his or her legally-carried firearm in self defense.

    The fact is that hysteria is no match for solid evidence. Business owners who prohibit carry on their premises are responding to hysteria - not objective data.

    I am still working to get a bill passed in Michigan that I call the Hoven Self-Defense Act of 2012. It is named for a pharmacist in Benton Harbor, MI, who stopped two gun-toting bad guys from robbing the Walgreen's Pharmacy for which he worked, after which he was fired for violating the company's no-firearms policy. The fact that the two bad guys physically abused and fired on the store employees meant nothing to Walgreen's; the employees were supposed to submit to the demands of the bad guys, and hope to be alive to talk with the police after it was all said and done.

    Sorry, that just doesn't work.

    The bill I am working to get passed states, "Except as provided by law, the right to carry a firearm for the defense of one’s self shall not be infringed by an employer, commercial entity, place of public accommodation or education." Existing law states that employers have the right to prohibit their employees from wearing or displaying some things openly, but it also states that an employer may not completely prohibit the wearing or display of those things. An employer would have the right to say that he doesn't want an employee to OC, but it would be illegal for the employer to prohibit CC. Regardless, the accommodation of civil rights is the law of the land, even for "private property businesses." The Second Amendment right to carry is a civil right; it's time to stop pretending otherwise.
    I wish you well with you bill here, do you have any sponsors yet?

    Curious how you are going to get this to pass though due to MI being an "At Will work state". Since an employer can fire you at will (and most employee handbooks state this), how would you get businesses not to oppose your proposition? Again, agree with your idea, just not sure it will get enough support.

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  3. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icemanii View Post
    I wish you well with you bill here, do you have any sponsors yet?

    Curious how you are going to get this to pass though due to MI being an "At Will work state". Since an employer can fire you at will (and most employee handbooks state this), how would you get businesses not to oppose your proposition? Again, agree with your idea, just not sure it will get enough support.
    It's hollow. It's not going to happen. Ever. No one has any right to be on any private property. No shoes, no shirt, no service? He must get past that in order to make the argument for being there armed. I don't want some huckalero deciding to open the ball in my place of business. As an instructor I see numbskulls, chimps in over-sized shoes, those looking for any reason to use a gun and a general population that can't hit the ground with their hat. I would prefer they take their business elsewhere. We really don't need their money. And if someone will only do business with others who allow him to carry a gun he's severely limiting his own options. But as a business owner he really doesn't matter to our bottom line.

    Know how they say "never say never?" I'm saying "never."
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  4. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    It's hollow. It's not going to happen. Ever. No one has any right to be on any private property. No shoes, no shirt, no service? He must get past that in order to make the argument for being there armed. I don't want some huckalero deciding to open the ball in my place of business. As an instructor I see numbskulls, chimps in over-sized shoes, those looking for any reason to use a gun and a general population that can't hit the ground with their hat. I would prefer they take their business elsewhere. We really don't need their money. And if someone will only do business with others who allow him to carry a gun he's severely limiting his own options. But as a business owner he really doesn't matter to our bottom line.

    Know how they say "never say never?" I'm saying "never."
    Hence my statement about MI being an At will state. They can fire you for any reason, so severely doubt he will get this even sponsored.

    I do NOT disagree that a business owner has the right to choose who to serve, sorry if that came across the wrong way. I personally shop at the local shops when I can to support local business. Can say I honestly don't decide on "gun/no gun" to shop there, if it is a good shop and helps a local person, then I go there. Keeps the money in the community so to speak.

  5. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye638 View Post
    I'll add my 2 cents. 3 Lowes within 20 miles in different directions and have open carried frequently in them all without a problem. Even had a couple of supporting comments from the staff.
    You are fortunate. As you know, California stopped open carry this past January 1 in many areas where before it was legal to open carry. You won't find open carry in any of our Lowe's "that I know of."

  6. #205
    _Gladiator_ Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    It's hollow. It's not going to happen. Ever. No one has any right to be on any private property. No shoes, no shirt, no service? He must get past that in order to make the argument for being there armed. I don't want some huckalero deciding to open the ball in my place of business. As an instructor I see numbskulls, chimps in over-sized shoes, those looking for any reason to use a gun and a general population that can't hit the ground with their hat. I would prefer they take their business elsewhere. We really don't need their money. And if someone will only do business with others who allow him to carry a gun he's severely limiting his own options. But as a business owner he really doesn't matter to our bottom line.

    Know how they say "never say never?" I'm saying "never."
    The "no shoes, no shirt, no service" thing is not a fair comparison. Those things are not a constitutionally protected right. There are also health concerns that come into play with no shoes or shirts.

  7. #206
    ezkl2230 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8gunz View Post
    G** I love that kind of talk. Why didn't I say that?? I hope you're gonna stick around for awhile.
    Yeah, I'm planning on being around for quite a while.

    I AM A STRICT CONSTRUCTIONIST!!!

    That means that I take the Constitution at its word, for what it SAYS - not what liberal courts have INTERPRETED IT to mean. So when the Constitution says in the Second Amendment that I have the right to bear arms, THAT IS WHAT I TAKE IT TO MEAN!!! If I am on someone's private property (by which I mean the property on which their residence is located) and they ask that I not carry, I will honor that request; THAT property is truly "private." When I am on property that has been opened to the public, however, that is a different issue. For the time being, if the owner of such property posts their business as "pistol free", I will honor that because Michigan law says that I must. But that isn't going to stop me from working to get that law changed.

    I have said it before, and I will continue saying it: THE BILL OF RIGHTS (the name says it all!) IS THE ORIGINAL CIVIL RIGHTS ACT. Before the Bill of Rights was compiled, our Constitution didn't recognize the rights of individuals. The Bill of Rights lists our inalienable, God-given civil rights - and that includes the most important one, the Second Amendment right to bear arms (the TEETH of the Bill of Rights), without which the Bill of Rights would be just another list of unenforceable pipe dreams as is true of the constitutions of nearly every other country of the world.

  8. #207
    In Texas, a business MUST post proper signage at EVERY doorway that leads into the business. And they have to post a sign in both english and spanish. The letters have to significantly contrast from the background of the sign, the letters have to be of a minimum height, and as I said earlier, these signs have to be on EVERY door. If they're not properly posted, you are legally allowed to carry inside the business. If they ARE properly posted, the secret is to a) not get caught, and b) hope nobody does anything stupid (ie, bad guy) that forces you to draw your weapon.

  9. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Gladiator_ View Post
    The "no shoes, no shirt, no service" thing is not a fair comparison. Those things are not a constitutionally protected right. There are also health concerns that come into play with no shoes or shirts.
    You have no rights on my private property. None. Can't speak freely. Can't carry a gun. Nothing. Go to the mall, get up on your soap box and exercise your first amendment right to freedom of speech. You'll be asked to leave. Refuse and the police will be called. Still refuse and you'll be arrested for trespass. When you get to court keep talking. You'll be charged with crminal contempt. Continue and they might tape your mouth shut like Larry Flynt. No. You have no right to even be on my property. When you get past that you can argue constitutional rights.

    The courts are overwhelmingly in my favor.
    • Supreme Court decision - Shopping Center v. Robins,447 U.S. 74, 1980, states that there is no constitutional right to free speech in a private shopping mall.
    • Supreme Court also ruled that "The Constitution is a limit on government power, not a constraint on what private individuals or corporations may do. A municipal government may not forbid guns to everyone on the territory under its control. But, as far as the law is concerned, a private property owner certainly can. A federal court recently upheld the law, but not because of the Bill of Rights. It said that "the constitutional right to bear arms restricts the actions of only the federal or state governments or their subdivisions, not private actors."


    So the law doesn't uphold gun rights on private property. This issue is long dead.

    Thank God I live in a country where I can throw junior out by his ear.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  10. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezkl2230 View Post
    Yeah, I'm planning on being around for quite a while.

    I AM A STRICT CONSTRUCTIONIST!!!

    That means that I take the Constitution at its word, for what it SAYS - not what liberal courts have INTERPRETED IT to mean. Before the Bill of Rights was compiled, our Constitution didn't recognize the rights of individuals. The Bill of Rights lists our inalienable, God-given civil rights.
    Unless you were black or a woman. The bill of rights did not provide equal rights for all persons. It provided rights to white men. It allowed slavery. Women had no right to vote or own property and nothing in the bill of rights prevented it. Refer to the Dred Scott case.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  11. #210
    ezkl2230 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    Unless you were black or a woman. The bill of rights did not provide equal rights for all persons. It provided rights to white men. It allowed slavery. Women had no right to vote or own property and nothing in the bill of rights prevented it. Refer to the Dred Scott case.
    Which is why they were sensible enough to provide a mechanism by which the laws could be amended. The principles were there from the beginning; society had to change to assure that ALL RIGHTS of ALL PEOPLE were protected. That many in the society of that day were too ignorant to understand that these rights weren't merely for white men doesn't change the fact that the rights already existed. It was the existence of those rights that led to the struggle to insure that they would apply equally to ALL Americans.

    On that note, just because many in society today refuse to accept the reality of the Second Amendment as a CIVIL RIGHT doesn't make it any less so. And I will continue the struggle to change the outlook of society to insure the free exercise of that right, in the words of the opinion of Judge Benson Legg, Federal Appeals Court (Maryland), 2 March 2012, Woollard v. Sheridan,

    "self-defense has to take place wherever [a] person happens to be... A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and substantial reason' why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right`s existence is all the reason he needs."

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