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Thread: Office Carry

  1. More than one issue here

    Quote Originally Posted by fullofdays View Post
    I ride public transportation into my job and work in a high rise. I'm certain that both the train AND the building where I work have a sign that states no concealed weapons. Actually, the train has a sign that says no weapons, smoking, food, loud music, et al... and the building has a sign that says "no concealed weapons" I am very concerned about traveling home late one night and being accosted by a vagrant on the train or en route to my vehicle. Local LEO's apprehended a gang member 3 weeks ago off the train who assaulted a fellow passenger. I was 6 feet away from him and felt in danger for my life. This was all before my permit arrived in the mail this week.

    So how can I effectively carry concealed daily with the commute on public transportation and in a high rise where signs prohibit weapons?? Do any forum members carry concealed wherever they please, regardless of validity of the signs??

    I'm aware that in my State the laws regarding "no concealed carry" signs have to be very explicit but I'm crossing state lines to work and dont want to loose my job due to a concealed weapon situation...
    First issue: crossing state lines. Presuming you have a resident permit, does your work state provide reciprocity or are you asking if you should carry illegally?
    Second Issue: Ignoring the No Weapon signs. I doubt you will find many on this forum who would advise you to ignore the signs, if they are lawful. Find another way. Unfortunately, in some states a stun gun or pepper spray is also considered a banned weapon. How about your hands and feet? Did you attempt to stop the assault? would you have if you had a gun? Are you prepared for those kind of questions and situations? What is your plan to get comfortable carrying, to practice presentation, to learn when you can legally draw and when you can legally shoot?

    I personally wouldn't carry across a state line i don't have reciprocity in. Generally it can mean risking a felony charge, and/or loss of your permits, and/or loss of your firearms. Checking the laws for the states in question isn't a good idea, it is mandatory for you, i'd think. I have to "go naked" to work everyday because i work in NYC, and in a Federal Building to boot. I could sneak in my concealed weapon, sure. I hate not having one with me. But above all i am a law-abiding citizen and have to work on changing a law i disagree with, not ignoring it. Besides which, i'm not interested in committing a federal felony. I carry to defend against the criminal that might target me or mine, not to become one.

    Maybe i read your post wrong.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants ... for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fullofdays View Post
    I ride public transportation into my job and work in a high rise. I'm certain that both the train AND the building where I work have a sign that states no concealed weapons. Actually, the train has a sign that says no weapons, smoking, food, loud music, et al... and the building has a sign that says "no concealed weapons" I am very concerned about traveling home late one night and being accosted by a vagrant on the train or en route to my vehicle. Local LEO's apprehended a gang member 3 weeks ago off the train who assaulted a fellow passenger. I was 6 feet away from him and felt in danger for my life. This was all before my permit arrived in the mail this week.

    So how can I effectively carry concealed daily with the commute on public transportation and in a high rise where signs prohibit weapons?? Do any forum members carry concealed wherever they please, regardless of validity of the signs??

    I'm aware that in my State the laws regarding "no concealed carry" signs have to be very explicit but I'm crossing state lines to work and dont want to loose my job due to a concealed weapon situation...
    I note you're from NC, so I assume your CCW permit is an NC permit. While I'm definitely sympthetic to your problem, you need to bear in mind that carrying in a properly posted "no gun zone" is grounds for revoking your NC permit.

    bill

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Daugherty16 View Post
    First issue: crossing state lines. Presuming you have a resident permit, does your work state provide reciprocity or are you asking if you should carry illegally?
    Second Issue: Ignoring the No Weapon signs. I doubt you will find many on this forum who would advise you to ignore the signs, if they are lawful. Find another way. Unfortunately, in some states a stun gun or pepper spray is also considered a banned weapon. How about your hands and feet? Did you attempt to stop the assault? would you have if you had a gun? Are you prepared for those kind of questions and situations? What is your plan to get comfortable carrying, to practice presentation, to learn when you can legally draw and when you can legally shoot?

    I personally wouldn't carry across a state line i don't have reciprocity in. Generally it can mean risking a felony charge, and/or loss of your permits, and/or loss of your firearms. Checking the laws for the states in question isn't a good idea, it is mandatory for you, i'd think. I have to "go naked" to work everyday because i work in NYC, and in a Federal Building to boot. I could sneak in my concealed weapon, sure. I hate not having one with me. But above all i am a law-abiding citizen and have to work on changing a law i disagree with, not ignoring it. Besides which, i'm not interested in committing a federal felony. I carry to defend against the criminal that might target me or mine, not to become one.

    Maybe i read your post wrong.
    +1

    I have a CCP in NY but my office is in NJ, so i have to go naked to work all the time myself. I hate it. But I always carry something that I can use to defend myself with: pocket knife (where I can), keys, comb, pen, rolled up magazine, hands and feet, plus what ever is in reach in an emergency.

  5. #14
    My S&W 340PD rides well in my right front pocket, in an uncle mike's pocket holster. Pleated pants do the trick. When I go to buy new pants, I always make sure they pass the deep pockets test. Some brands are better than others.

  6. Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. Here's some add'l info and thoughts.

    Pocket carry: I have a Desantis for my 642...tried it in my suit pants. The pants are just so thin that when I sit down it prints pretty strongly...I am often in meetings with folks sitting next to me. I can't always get to the meeting early to pick a seat of choice...ie. no one on my carry side. Also when sitting I fear the 642 grip might be visible to someone sitting on my right side.

    IWB: I long ago decided I much prefer to have all white shirts to have one less piece of clothes to match in the morning . On top of that they are custom made so there's not a lot of extra material. When not at work I carry IWB in street clothes no problem...XD 40 Service in a cheapo Galco cross draw. Works fine. I also have a Supertuck for my XD....maybe one for the 642 might not print even with custom fit white shirts.....something to think about...Minor downside is the transfer from my carry bag to the IWB when I get to and leave work would be more diffictult than with an ankle rig.

    Ankle rig: My work environment is not a high risk one so superfast draw is not a priority. I would think the weight would ride better on my ankle than in my suit pocket. Outside the office to/from work is different. But with my work bag set up I can draw and present in 2 seconds or less. I was also thinking...perhaps incorrectly? that an ankle rig is much easier to attach than something like a Supertuck. Could keep the ankle rig in my desk....get to work...sit down...strap it on and load up.

    BTW...back story here is I'm a PA resident and just got my CCW about a month ago...what an awesome thing. Took about a week. And to think I lived for years in Commiefornia. I hope to never leave PA...and will do anything in my power to never again live in a state without similar CCW capability.

    Appreciate any further thoughts.

  7. I hate to be preachy but...

    Quote Originally Posted by stresco View Post
    +1

    I have a CCP in NY but my office is in NJ, so i have to go naked to work all the time myself. I hate it. But I always carry something that I can use to defend myself with: pocket knife (where I can), keys, comb, pen, rolled up magazine, hands and feet, plus what ever is in reach in an emergency.

    You obviously know where i was headed. The post by FullofDays just glared with issues - and I hate to see a legitimate fellow CCW heading off the wrong direction like that. It reflects poorly on all of us, and would just give the anti's more reason to oppose CCW. When i first got my permit, I wasn't anything resembling ready for the awesome responsibility that CCW is - and i'm learning every day how it is more and more responsibility. You can't just strap on a gun and go - that's just the point at which your education really starts. IMHO.

    I wondered if FullofDays was actually an anti trying to bait us - and apologize to him/her if i'm wrong. We all believe strongly in the 2nd amendment, but we also have to abide by the state or even local laws that exist. If they are bad laws, we have to get them changed. Doesn't make much sense to go through the (often difficult and expensive) process of obtaining a CCW only to disregard the law afterward.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants ... for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Daugherty16 View Post
    You obviously know where i was headed. The post by FullofDays just glared with issues - and I hate to see a legitimate fellow CCW heading off the wrong direction like that. It reflects poorly on all of us, and would just give the anti's more reason to oppose CCW. When i first got my permit, I wasn't anything resembling ready for the awesome responsibility that CCW is - and i'm learning every day how it is more and more responsibility. You can't just strap on a gun and go - that's just the point at which your education really starts. IMHO.

    I wondered if FullofDays was actually an anti trying to bait us - and apologize to him/her if i'm wrong. We all believe strongly in the 2nd amendment, but we also have to abide by the state or even local laws that exist. If they are bad laws, we have to get them changed. Doesn't make much sense to go through the (often difficult and expensive) process of obtaining a CCW only to disregard the law afterward.
    Understood! I worked really hard to get my CCP, and it wasn't cheap, 10 months of waiting days off of work, etc. Although I didn't really agree with the judge when he told me that Carrying in NY is a privilege, I can see how it can be and how much responsibility you have to follow the laws once you do carry. I holster my weapon when I am getting dressed in the morning. I goes on my belt before I put my shoes on. Then I take a moment to remind myself of just how much responsibility I am carrying (life or death). It really is a privilege. A privilege that has been given to all of us in the 2nd amendment of US Constitution. One that we should not take for granted because it is one of our inalienable rights. IMHO, it is both a right as an American, and a privilage because we are Americans. Neither should be taken for granted.

    I remember when I took the Defensive Driving course for the first time. The instructor told me that having a DL is a privilege that you have to earn every time to get behind the wheel of a car. I was 18 then and didn't really pay him much mind. That was over 20 years ago. I think differently now...

    On another note, or back on topic even... I was in Davis Shooting Sports yesterday on RT 17. They are practically across the street from NJ State Line. I asked, "So what do you do when you go into Jersey?" to the guys working behind the counter. They both said "Don't go if you are carrying." One told me "I wont even go over there to buy gas because I am always carrying."

    Unless you are crossing over into a state that honors your CCP or you have a non resident permit from them, leave your weapon home.

  9. #18
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    Our new booklet on "Code Of Conduct" just came out, and under Safety And Security it mentions about having a Safe workplace; minimizing the potential for violence on our Company's premises or when engaging in business on the Company's behalf. This means we may not:
    Carry of weapons without prior written approval from your local Human Resources and Legal departments. (Firearms require additional approval from the Company's Director.)

    I carry my weapon on me concealed here in the shop I work in. It is a small .22LR folding gun/handle that clips on my waistband on the inside of my pants. VERY concealed. I work in a manufacturing repair shop and also do business in the front office at times. There is only a total of like 10 people here. Since this booklet came out recently, I want to get in touch with HR to let them know but on the other hand I May be opening a can of worms too. It states I need written approval to carry a firearm on me. I think by mentioning it, HR is going to start asking me all these questions, ie; "why do you need to carry inside the building; what do you need it for, etc" I can see if it were a Federal Bldg., but we don't even handle any $ over here. We are just a Sales and Service facility. Then what, sorry, we cannot give you written approval? So now my firearm is going to have to stay in the ca,r and the day I need it I don't have it on me? Remember, we don't live in a perfect world and Anything can happen Anytime. Like mentioned on here too, You don't want to break the law because We are the ones who are the law abiding citizen/s.
    I hope I didn't go way off topic here but it was also asked about Others concealing in an office enviroment.
    (All the above are MY opinions/suggestions ONLY....AND, I like to bust ball's, it's called having a sense of humor. In other words, no intent to offend anyone, so get over it)

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daugherty16 View Post
    You obviously know where i was headed. The post by FullofDays just glared with issues - and I hate to see a legitimate fellow CCW heading off the wrong direction like that. It reflects poorly on all of us, and would just give the anti's more reason to oppose CCW. When i first got my permit, I wasn't anything resembling ready for the awesome responsibility that CCW is - and i'm learning every day how it is more and more responsibility. You can't just strap on a gun and go - that's just the point at which your education really starts. IMHO.

    I wondered if FullofDays was actually an anti trying to bait us - and apologize to him/her if i'm wrong. We all believe strongly in the 2nd amendment, but we also have to abide by the state or even local laws that exist. If they are bad laws, we have to get them changed. Doesn't make much sense to go through the (often difficult and expensive) process of obtaining a CCW only to disregard the law afterward.
    I think the substance of my question wasn't clearly communicated in my post yesterday. I was at work dealing with a lot of fire drills and didnt get to spend the appropriate amount of time in crafting my question. I apologize to come across as an anti. I'm carrying my XD M in a crossbreed super tuck rig today as a matter of fact.


    Heading in the wrong direction is not my intention. Tha is why I am asking the following: My question has to do more with the interpretation of the following definitions: (In otherwords, does a sign on a train or office building that does not meet these legal requirements carry any weight in a court of law. )


    SECTION 23-31-235. Sign requirements.



    (A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language.

    (B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be:

    (1) clearly visible from outside the building;

    (2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;

    (3) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black one inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

    (4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal;

    (5) a diameter of a circle; and

    (6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building’s entrance door.

    (C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have doors, then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be:

    (1) thirty six inches wide by forty eight inches tall in size;

    (2) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black three inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

    (3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty four inches in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide;

    (4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety six inches above the ground;

    (5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of entry onto the premises.

    Discuss

  11. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by fullofdays View Post

    Heading in the wrong direction is not my intention. Tha is why I am asking the following: My question has to do more with the interpretation of the following definitions: (In otherwords, does a sign on a train or office building that does not meet these legal requirements carry any weight in a court of law. )




    Discuss

    I have come across this same issue myself on a number of occasions. In particular, there is a movie theater my wife and I patronize that has a "No Concealed Weapons" sign that does not meet the law's requirements.

    Now, in the past, I have carried into this establishment as--the way I see it and interpret the law--their signs have as much legality as one that says "No Redheads Allowed". My wife, who is a prosecutor with the state's Attorney General's office, had stated that she believes that this interpretation is correct and would hold up in court.

    HOWEVER, she has also requested that I not carry into these areas as this question of "interpretation" would most likely be addressed in a criminal courtroom and not in the parking lot with a local deputy sheriff. She indicates that she firmly believes an officer would default to making the arrest and letting the Solicitor decide whether or not to file charges.

    Having spent years as a defense attorney as well, she has reminded me that this period of time in which the Solicitor is choosing whether or not to pursue charges could range from 4 to 6 months.

    This means that if you were arrested in this scenario your weapon would be confiscated, your CWP revoked, and you would be incarcerated. You would have an opportunity to make bail the same day unless it was in the evening, in which case you would spend the night in your local detention center.

    If you were unable to make bail you could easily sit in jail for 6 months waiting for this issue to be resolved. This may seem extreme, but my wife reminds me that she had a client who could not make bail and was incarcerated for over a year before his charges were dropped.

    It is a very tricky situation and, should you choose to carry into anyplace that has these non-compliant signs you better have 1) very good concealment, 2) a copy of the law in your pocket, and 3) the phone number of your trusty defense attorney "just in case".


    It has taken several discussions with the wife to pull me out of the "I'm not doing anything illegal" and "I am carrying fully within my rights" mentality and to make me a little more aware of the practical consequences of my decision to step into the "gray area" of law and intent.

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