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Thread: Best CCW 45 ACP?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    8
    Unless you are really stuck on the 45 ACP consider the kahr in 40 cal. External dimensions are essentially identical so the same holsters should work with your pm9 and karh p40.[/QUOTE]

    I too have the PM9. and am now looking at the P45 for the reasons you stated. Did you ever consider the P40? A good hollow point 40cal is almost as effective as a good hollow point 45. I am not a believer in "one shot, one kill" as most people have praised the 45 to be. I subscribe to the notion that shot placement and multiple hits are a major factor in dropping a bad guy.
    "All that's necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing " - Benjamin Franklin

  2.   
  3. Keeping in mind that .45 is going to be heavier and larger generally than 9mm; here is what I carry:
    Sig P239 9mm or Glock 26 9mm on light days (warm/hot)
    Glock 30 .45 or Sig P239 in .357.

    I am leaning towards the Glocks for reliability and capacity and accuracy; the Sigs are beautiful engineering pieces and I love to carry them but still, Glock only has 30 something moving parts and is ultra reliable. Bet your life reliable. I have plenty of 1911's and would not trust my life to any of them really. The only semi's that I have never, ever had failure with are Glocks and Sigs. And we are talking thousands of rounds here.

    You also need to consider speed to first accurate shot and subsequent accurate shots and the Glock and Sig fit the bill sufficiently for my demands.

    Problem is that we are spoiled for choice here.

    The Glock 30 with a NY1 trigger, steel night sights and 1 standard and 2 or 4 extended magazines would be my choice if choosing one pistola; along with the best and safest holster I could find considering that I am tucking my shirts in with a gun that has a 5 pound trigger pull from the factory at best. Double blessing; faster first round and less safety from AD's. That's why the NY1 trigger recommendation. And I can assure you that it is plenty accurate at the ranges you are going to need it at as well as being easy to conceal.

    ONE SHOT STOP? I would not count on it and I would take some lethal force training fast. You need to be protecting yourself by doing things like lateral movement while drawing and firing, etc. Your draw and first shot need to be smooth as a baby's behind - THAT is what MIGHT get you a one shot stop but don't count on it. You are going to have to place your shot in a 2" circle to effect that... right in the nose of the BG while you are moving and he is moving. Not likely.

    Expect to exchange a dozen or more rounds (if you are lucky) and if you are luckier and better trained than the bad guy you may get away a lucky stopper; more likely you are going to get a bleeder and that's going to take up to two or three minutes at best to effect a stop, even with the best ammo money can buy.

    Remember to keep firing until the threat is stopped. Period. Chances are that you haven't even hit the BG otherwise, just filled his pants.

    The best gunfight you can get into is the one where no rounds are exchanged. Carry a "drop billfold" with a twenty and a bunch of ones inside the twenty and toss it if necessary and if you have an opportunity to - and then run like hell if you can. I can promise you that you will think back and appreciate this advice.

    And my other piece of advice. Get some serious professional lethal encounter training, quick. One of the first things they should be showing you if they are worth their salt is how you can have your throat slit ear to ear or have your firearm removed from you from twenty feet away by the BG. That will make you sit up and take notes. I have had it done to me and I consider myself a fairly fast draw and accurate shot. Makes little difference as only 1/4" pressure on the slide of a semi will disable it (out of battery) and simply grabbing the cylinder of most if not all revolvers will disable them (can't revolve into position and lock up for the next shot). And then it takes a fraction of a second to remove the gun from you and leave you with a dangling finger or a neck that is slit from ear to ear.

    If you read the coroners' reports online you will note a common theme. The "one shot stop" is not a very common occurance. Most hits will cause bleed out - the speed of which is determined by the amount of damage done to major blood vessels and organs. Even a shot through the heart is not a guaranteed instant stop.

    For my part, situational awareness, constant practice and much training are taken as my lifeline. And even then, please, please remember that there are no guarantees so don't be a cowboy. We had a cowboy up here a couple of years ago who wound up on a slab for his efforts. Had he just walked away and dialled 911 he would still be alive and would have all of his posessions back. Regretably, cowboy is more macho and fun. And it gets you dead.

    Last but not least - I am a fan of bigger and slower and an even greater fan of bigger and fast, as in +p+ loads, which both Glock and Sig are designed to take (not all guns will handle the pressure). Bigger plus faster equals more damage and more damage equals a faster stop by bleed out and shock.

    I had one instructor who suggested the double tap to the heart was a fallacy that cost lives and was a proponent of a double tap to the King's jewels area to bend the BG over and then empty the magazine straight on, aiming at the bridge of the nose for maximum effect. The survivor of several gunfights (none of which could be proven or otherwise) he suggested that this was the most effective route to take... not actually aiming at the scrotum but rather at the belt-line would double the attacker over and terminate any forward advance, a number of rounds well and accurately placed to the eyesockets/bridge of the nose would result in either a terminal stop by disrupting the cerebral cortex or by penetrating and damaging the lungs/heart/circulation and a resultant rapid bleedout.

    Take it all for what its worth and get that training. Everyone seems to have their own ideas in terms of tactics. Mine, to be honest, is avoidance.

    I almost forgot, one other gun that I simply adore. The HK P7M8 or P7PSP (older). It is an inline, fixed barrel design squeeze cocker and is deadly accurate but only in 9mm. I can put 8 or 9 rounds in a 2 or 3" circle from 20 feet from leather faster than you can say jack be nimble.

    Definitely worth a look but they are steel and heavier. WONDERFUL guns. We own two and carry them in the winter sometimes.

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    The Heart of Dixie
    Posts
    1,225
    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy View Post
    Keeping in mind that .45 is going to be heavier and larger generally than 9mm; here is what I carry:
    Sig P239 9mm or Glock 26 9mm on light days (warm/hot)
    Glock 30 .45 or Sig P239 in .357.

    I am leaning towards the Glocks for reliability and capacity and accuracy; the Sigs are beautiful engineering pieces and I love to carry them but still, Glock only has 30 something moving parts and is ultra reliable. Bet your life reliable. I have plenty of 1911's and would not trust my life to any of them really. The only semi's that I have never, ever had failure with are Glocks and Sigs. And we are talking thousands of rounds here.

    You also need to consider speed to first accurate shot and subsequent accurate shots and the Glock and Sig fit the bill sufficiently for my demands.

    Problem is that we are spoiled for choice here.

    The Glock 30 with a NY1 trigger, steel night sights and 1 standard and 2 or 4 extended magazines would be my choice if choosing one pistola; along with the best and safest holster I could find considering that I am tucking my shirts in with a gun that has a 5 pound trigger pull from the factory at best. Double blessing; faster first round and less safety from AD's. That's why the NY1 trigger recommendation. And I can assure you that it is plenty accurate at the ranges you are going to need it at as well as being easy to conceal.

    ONE SHOT STOP? I would not count on it and I would take some lethal force training fast. You need to be protecting yourself by doing things like lateral movement while drawing and firing, etc. Your draw and first shot need to be smooth as a baby's behind - THAT is what MIGHT get you a one shot stop but don't count on it. You are going to have to place your shot in a 2" circle to effect that... right in the nose of the BG while you are moving and he is moving. Not likely.

    Expect to exchange a dozen or more rounds (if you are lucky) and if you are luckier and better trained than the bad guy you may get away a lucky stopper; more likely you are going to get a bleeder and that's going to take up to two or three minutes at best to effect a stop, even with the best ammo money can buy.

    Remember to keep firing until the threat is stopped. Period. Chances are that you haven't even hit the BG otherwise, just filled his pants.

    The best gunfight you can get into is the one where no rounds are exchanged. Carry a "drop billfold" with a twenty and a bunch of ones inside the twenty and toss it if necessary and if you have an opportunity to - and then run like hell if you can. I can promise you that you will think back and appreciate this advice.

    And my other piece of advice. Get some serious professional lethal encounter training, quick. One of the first things they should be showing you if they are worth their salt is how you can have your throat slit ear to ear or have your firearm removed from you from twenty feet away by the BG. That will make you sit up and take notes. I have had it done to me and I consider myself a fairly fast draw and accurate shot. Makes little difference as only 1/4" pressure on the slide of a semi will disable it (out of battery) and simply grabbing the cylinder of most if not all revolvers will disable them (can't revolve into position and lock up for the next shot). And then it takes a fraction of a second to remove the gun from you and leave you with a dangling finger or a neck that is slit from ear to ear.

    If you read the coroners' reports online you will note a common theme. The "one shot stop" is not a very common occurance. Most hits will cause bleed out - the speed of which is determined by the amount of damage done to major blood vessels and organs. Even a shot through the heart is not a guaranteed instant stop.

    For my part, situational awareness, constant practice and much training are taken as my lifeline. And even then, please, please remember that there are no guarantees so don't be a cowboy. We had a cowboy up here a couple of years ago who wound up on a slab for his efforts. Had he just walked away and dialled 911 he would still be alive and would have all of his posessions back. Regretably, cowboy is more macho and fun. And it gets you dead.

    Last but not least - I am a fan of bigger and slower and an even greater fan of bigger and fast, as in +p+ loads, which both Glock and Sig are designed to take (not all guns will handle the pressure). Bigger plus faster equals more damage and more damage equals a faster stop by bleed out and shock.

    I had one instructor who suggested the double tap to the heart was a fallacy that cost lives and was a proponent of a double tap to the King's jewels area to bend the BG over and then empty the magazine straight on, aiming at the bridge of the nose for maximum effect. The survivor of several gunfights (none of which could be proven or otherwise) he suggested that this was the most effective route to take... not actually aiming at the scrotum but rather at the belt-line would double the attacker over and terminate any forward advance, a number of rounds well and accurately placed to the eyesockets/bridge of the nose would result in either a terminal stop by disrupting the cerebral cortex or by penetrating and damaging the lungs/heart/circulation and a resultant rapid bleedout.

    Take it all for what its worth and get that training. Everyone seems to have their own ideas in terms of tactics. Mine, to be honest, is avoidance.

    I almost forgot, one other gun that I simply adore. The HK P7M8 or P7PSP (older). It is an inline, fixed barrel design squeeze cocker and is deadly accurate but only in 9mm. I can put 8 or 9 rounds in a 2 or 3" circle from 20 feet from leather faster than you can say jack be nimble.

    Definitely worth a look but they are steel and heavier. WONDERFUL guns. We own two and carry them in the winter sometimes.
    Some of the best advice I have read on this site!!! Cudos Torontogunguy!

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    8

    Smile

    Wow! Thanks for the very informative response. I see you have done your homework and I appreciate your enthusiasm on the subject matter. The advice you offer is priceless. I also believe in the importance of that first shot, but also subsequent shots in the smallest amount of time in the most critical areas of the body. Yes, head shots are great(granted you can make them under extreme stress), and shots to the hip area are good too(being that it will slow the BG down). I recently read an officer involved shooting where a state trooper exchanged gunfire with a bad guy. The bad guy was able to wound the state trooper first in the leg area which caused the trooper to retreat back to his vehilce firing back and once behind cover, conduct a reload to continue to fight. He kept moving as the BG guy continued to move after him! In the end, the BG finally expired from 21 gun shots to his body, including 17 that were center mass. The trooper's gun was a glock which fired hollow point 40 cal. rounds. The BG was able to survive for almost 5 minutes before expiring. The trooper survived this live and death encounter. I'm not sure if a 45 acp would have changed the outcome, but having more rounds definately increased the officer's survival rate in the gunfight.
    So I am wondering if having more rounds (9mm or 40cal) as opposed to less rounds in a 45 would be the better choice? Who knows? I'm sure that debate will never go away - at least anytime soon.
    "All that's necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing " - Benjamin Franklin

  6. #25
    My .45's are a Glock 30, S&W 1911 Gunsite PD 4.25', and a Colt Night Officer 3.5' on a commander frame. I love 'em all and carry all of them from time to time. Hard to beat the 1911 platform for concealability and reliability. The Glock 30 is awesome and very accurate. I usually carry that in a Galco JackAss Shoulder rig.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Deadontarget View Post
    Wow! Thanks for the very informative response. I see you have done your homework and I appreciate your enthusiasm on the subject matter. The advice you offer is priceless. I also believe in the importance of that first shot, but also subsequent shots in the smallest amount of time in the most critical areas of the body. Yes, head shots are great(granted you can make them under extreme stress), and shots to the hip area are good too(being that it will slow the BG down). I recently read an officer involved shooting where a state trooper exchanged gunfire with a bad guy. The bad guy was able to wound the state trooper first in the leg area which caused the trooper to retreat back to his vehilce firing back and once behind cover, conduct a reload to continue to fight. He kept moving as the BG guy continued to move after him! In the end, the BG finally expired from 21 gun shots to his body, including 17 that were center mass. The trooper's gun was a glock which fired hollow point 40 cal. rounds. The BG was able to survive for almost 5 minutes before expiring. The trooper survived this live and death encounter. I'm not sure if a 45 acp would have changed the outcome, but having more rounds definately increased the officer's survival rate in the gunfight.
    So I am wondering if having more rounds (9mm or 40cal) as opposed to less rounds in a 45 would be the better choice? Who knows? I'm sure that debate will never go away - at least anytime soon.
    First, I would love to know what the trooper was hit with - ammo and calibre. A hit in the leg with LEO Federal HST or HS2 in .45 +P+ is going to do a LOT of damage. I am surprised but not in disbelief that 21 hits in .40 would give a bad guy sufficient time to get off a whole lot more rounds. I'd be willing to bet if that trooper stays on the job that his next sidearm is going to be something in .45 +P+ using Federal HS2/HST's or the other newest engineered hollow points. They simply do their intended business better.

    In terms of number of rounds... I carry at least two and try to carry 4 spare magazines in either 9mm or .45 when I am carrying. With the G30 for example, I will carry the standard 9 round magazine inserted plus one in the chamber for a total of ten rounds on hand; the RELOAD magazines are all TEN rounders and if I was inclined to live in a state where there was no ban on large capacity magazines I would carry RELOAD magazines with greater capacity because, after all, once the gun in drawn, we don't really care about how long the butt is, do we? I can reload in a fraction of a second while on the move, so capacity is not an issue nor should it be for anyone serious about carrying concealed. Tactical reloads are a valuable learned art as well (rather than dropping your spent magazine). So, all in all, I try to carry a total of 50 rounds - and settle for 30 rounds to keep my pants from falling down around my ankles. There is really no debate about ammo quality or quantity. The best ammo that money can buy and the most ammo that you are comfortable carrying. Period. I have pulled into rest stops along the highway where I have driven straight through without stopping for fear of there being two or more bad guys with ill intentions.... rather whizz by the side of the road than take a chance, right?

    There is talk these days that with highly engineered rounds and quality firearms, that 9mm can give one the same results as .45 but I personally don't buy into that argument as I would rather have the best .45 money can buy as opposed to the best 9mm money can buy - keeping in mind that I feel that I can control my shots just as well with a .45 as a 9mm. Some cannot and so are better off with a quality 9mm. that is controllable and will give good COM hits and perhaps a 'stopper' to the cerebral cortex. In the end, I don't have sufficient confidence that in a gunfight I am going to have the motor skills to do that... so my personal preference would be for the largest round that I could control for COM hits. That's .45 for me.

    Whatever you choose, it is important to be practicing under real life conditions as best you can. In my case that has included 'simunition' training but more so it has included IPSC/IDPA competition where one moves and fires and is exposed to various go/no go situations. Most concealed weapon carriers strap on their firearm and leave it at that and that is a huge, huge mistake. We need only look at the reports of gunfights with store owners, etc., in the news where 100 rounds were exchanged and zero hits registered to take this in. The bad guy has 'the drop' on you. You are in REACTION mode - the only thing that will give you any hope for evening out the odds is training and practice, if you want to stay alive.

    We have a friend who was in Florida a couple of years ago and to make a long story short, his pal went to park the car while he escorted the ladies into the restaurant. They found his pal with one planted in his ear shortly thereafter; so you don't always get to use that CCW handgun. That night they were both carrying and one wonders if that might have made a difference in the outcome. Situational awareness and training. One wonders.

    Whatever you choose to do, give it your best. One day your life may depend on it. As mine did when I had a revolver stuck in my nose in Orlando five years ago. I was lucky. The bad guy was higher than a kite and I had the car in DRIVE with the brakes on. As soon as he dropped his attention I floored it and fortunately did not get shot at. I have carried ever since 24/7 when legal to do so.

    We travel a lot and I am just waiting for a national carry bill (shall issue) to make life easier for me. And send the criminals where they need to be, sorting out the gene pool in the process.

    Keep safe.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by surfcc View Post
    My .45's are a Glock 30, S&W 1911 Gunsite PD 4.25', and a Colt Night Officer 3.5' on a commander frame. I love 'em all and carry all of them from time to time. Hard to beat the 1911 platform for concealability and reliability. The Glock 30 is awesome and very accurate. I usually carry that in a Galco JackAss Shoulder rig.
    I have always found my 1911's to be of varying reliability (not unreliable per se, but the occasional and rare stovepipe or FTF) while every one of my Glocks has NEVER misfed nor misfired. We have IPSC/IDPA Glocks that have several thousand rouns through them without a single issue. The only 1911's that I can say that about are my Para P1640's. I find that my Kimbers with external extractors are pretty reliable too. But if I am betting my life on getting off an accurate round quickly I will stick to Glock, Sig and HK P7M8's, none of which has given me a single issue ever. That is what I demand in a personal protection firearm.

    +1 on the Glock 30. It's one of my favourite carry's.

  9. S'field xd45c.......13+1 in a .45!! You gotta love that. I had one and carried it everyday OC in a Sharkskin Savannah holster from Southern Holsters, LLC
    Check em out. $85 + shipping for mine.

  10. The fact of the matter is that the bigger and fatter the grip of your .45 is, the greater the capacity and the less concealable. That is why I have gone with the Glock 30 (standard model) with a ported/compensated barrel and night sights and a NY1 trigger.

    I also own several other .45's of varying sizes and weights but keep coming back to that Glock 30 for some reason. One of them is total reliability and dead to nuts accuracy at CQB ranges (after all who's going to be using a G30 at 25+ yards?)

    Picked up two books by the same author at Borders in Buffalo; one is called "Thank God I had a Gun" and one of the stories in it is about the trooper who you are talking about I believe. I believe a citizen who had a .45 full size also came to the gunfight and was killed by the perp. In the end they discovered that the perp had milspec body armour on and it was a ricochet shot that had split into two pieces on impact that entered the perp; one part entered above his lip and pretty much in his nose and brought him to a dead stop.

    The business of triple tap is often spoken about; in reality it is one of the most difficult maneuvers to make during a running gun battle. The COM shots are going to do nothing more than bleed out the perp and that can take time. It is the cerebral cortex shot(s) that bring things to a dead stop and are generally the result of 'one shot stop' stories. Again, they are generally very difficult in a running gun battle.

    A sufficient amount of ammo is a good thing to have - more opportunities at the 'dead stop' shot. High tech rounds COM are going to do serious damage and it is obvious that the bigger the better but many have been killed by mouseguns from my research.

    So, whenever I am able I carry my G30 and at least two spare ten rounders in Gold Dot or whatever and in +P+, which the G30 is made to stand. That hefty hollowpoint engineered round making contact at around 1,000fps is going to do serious damage. According to these books about as much damage as a solid .223 coming out of an AR. In one of the recent issues of Guns and Ammo they compared AR vs. handgun vs. shotgun and the handgun came out as the best all around self defense weapon.

    I could go on for days, but suffice it to say that I am comfy wearing my G26 or my Sig P239 in 9mm. with engineered rounds but prefer to wear my G30 if I am able to do so. All three handguns carry 10+1 and 10 rounders on the reload, for which I always carry either two or four spare mags in a top quality leather belt holder or holders that look like cellphone holders.

    Just remember that it's a whole lot easier punching paper on the range than it is hitting a moving target that is shooting back at you. Get into IPSC/IDPA/PPSA, etc. to practice and if you are near one of the popular training centres, do it.

    Keep safe out there, whatever you do. And if you can avoid a fight without putting yourself at risk DO IT. DO IT! You simply don't want to know what using lethal force or brandishing where it is a felony is going to do to your life.

  11. #30
    Another vote for the G36... I just got one a few weeks back and it's a great carry choice IMO. I have semi retired my Kahr CW9 to home defense. I'll alternate from time to time, but the Glock is an awesome platform and the .45, well nuff said there. Cheers.

    GBK
    When seconds count, the LEO's are only minutes away...

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