Carrying as a non-immigrant
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Thread: Carrying as a non-immigrant

  1. #1

    Carrying as a non-immigrant

    Hi,

    First some background. I've just turned 21, and I'm a British student at a university here in the UK. I finish my degree next year and I'm planning on coming to the US to do my Phd and eventually stay there permanently. There's many reasons I want to study in the US, and many reasons I'd like to move, but one of them is that I believe in the right to defend one's self and in the United States people enjoy the right to carry the tools to defend themselves if, god forbid, they should need to. A luxury I do not enjoy in my own country but would like to share.

    I'm looking at universities in several states, but one of the most likely spots for me to touch down is Duke in Durham, North Carolina, so I'll use this as a sort of example. A Phd course takes 5 years usually, so I'll be there a while. I can't get a green card until I can get an offer of employment, which means finishing my Phd. So for those 5 years I'll be a non-immigrant.

    Now I've been told that only citizens and immigrants (i.e. green card holders) can own guns at all, let alone get CCW permits. This comes from the Federal law:

    (d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise
    dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person
    knowing or
    having reasonable cause to believe that such person -

    [...]

    (5) who, being an alien -
    (A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
    (B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
    admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa
    (as
    that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration
    and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
    Note the exemption for subsection (y)(2). That section reads:

    (y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant
    Visas. -

    [...]

    (2) Exceptions. - Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and
    (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully
    admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that
    alien is -

    (A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or
    sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or
    permit lawfully issued in the United States;
    So, if a non-immigrant has a US hunting license, he can own guns. The North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission website says re: hunting licenses:

    What if I am a non-resident student attending college in North Carolina?

    Nonresident students may purchase a resident license while attending a university, college, or community college in NC.
    So, as far as I can tell, I can get a hunting license, legally own firearms and, since NC has no law against it, carry them openly. So first, question: Am I correct so far?

    Assuming I am, that's great, and leads to a couple of further questions:

    How concealed is 'concealed'? (concealed being what I'd need to avoid, in order to keep it legal without a CCW permit) Could I wear the gun outside-the-waistband under a jacket or shirt thus concealing it from the rear and side, but leaving it visible from the front? Or do I need to keep it in 100% plain view e.g. OWB without a jacket, drop leg when wearing a jacket, etc?

    However, while that's all good to know, I'd much rather carry concealed if possible.

    Unfortunately, the Durham County Government website says re: CCW permits:

    The applicant must be a citizen of the United States...
    Now, Arizona, for example, says the following:

    Applicants must:
    be a resident of this state or a United States citizen;
    And clarifies:

    State Prohibitors
    ARS 13-3101(6) - Prohibited possessor
    means any person -


    [...]

    who is an undocumented alien or a nonimmigrant alien traveling with or without documentation in this state for business or pleasure or who is studying in this state and who maintains a foreign residence abroad. This subdivision does not apply to:
    Nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid hunting license or permit that is lawfully issued by a state in the United States.
    So if I were in Arizona, once I've been there 90 days (which, I believe, makes me a resident, if not a permanent one but it does not specify permanent) and got my hunting license, so far as I can tell, I could get a CCW. Again, am I right?

    Assuming I am, unfortunately I'm not going to Arizona! Since I'm not a citizen, I can't get an Arizona permit unless I live there.

    So what I need to find is:

    Somewhere that will issue non-citizens who are residents in other states, non-resident permits, and that has reciprocity in NC. I'm sure there must be somewhere, since most states let non-citizens in their own state get a permit, surely one law will be written "a resident of the United States" instead of "a resident of this state or a citizen".

    OR, somewhere in NC that will issue to residents of NC who are not citizens. I'm not sure if that's actually law, or just county policy.

    So, can anyone point me in the direction of states I might have some luck with?

    I'll just add, before anyone points it out, that I know NC does not allow carry on educational property. Obviously, not all my time is spent on campus!

    EDIT:

    Utah may be the state I'm looking for?

    http://www.le.utah.gov/UtahCode/getC...?code=53-5-704

    I see no residency or citizenship requirement in there. Can someone confirm?

  2.   
  3. #2
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    I may be wrong but I read somewhere recently, if not here...perhaps USCCA, that you have to be a resident of Utah to apply for a permit there...there are some states where you can apply as a non-resident but you got to be a legal immigrant first, papers needed to show for it and trainings taken, e.g., Florida law for non-immigrant.
    Last edited by lukem; 11-28-2010 at 09:24 PM.
    "Don't let the door hit ya where the dawg shudda bit ya!"
    G'day and Glock
    GATEWAY SWIFT WING ST. LOUIS

  4. #3
    Most American "students" are not rich and they get part-time work even if they have student loans and grants. As an English candidate for a PhD, you can and should get a job.
    I presume you are using a British student loan so don't want to screw the pooch until you have your sheepskin.

    Check Federal laws too... ATF Online - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
    The people think the Second Amendment protects their rights;
    Government sees an obstacle to be over-come.
    NRA Life since 1966

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker's Mom View Post
    I may be wrong but I read somewhere recently, if not here...perhaps USCCA, that you have to be a resident of Utah to apply for a permit there...there are some states where you can apply as a non-resident but you got to be a legal immigrant first, papers needed to show for it and trainings taken, e.g., Florida law for non-immigrant.
    The Utah Department of Public Safety says:

    Do I have to be a Utah resident to obtain a concealed firearm permit?

    No. Any U.S. citizen may obtain a Utah concealed firearm permit, providing they meet the minimum qualifications.
    Now they say any U.S. citizen, but this is, I think, just because a non-citizen, non- resident getting one is such an unusual, perhaps unheard of situation. If you read the actual law for CCW permits in Utah there is no requirement for citizenship or residency. The law says they must issue an applicant a CCW if they are 21 years of age or older (I am), within 60 days, unless they can prove that the applicant is not of good character, with a list of things that satisfactorily demonstrate good character. Every item on the list applies to me. The only one concerning citizenship is:

    (viii) is qualified to purchase and possess a firearm pursuant to Section 76-10-503 and federal law.
    That Utah law's (Section 76-10-503) only mention of citizenship is that it is illegal to possess guns if the following applies to you:

    (viii) is an alien who is illegally or unlawfully in the United States;
    Since I will be legally and lawfully in the United States, I am qualified to purchase and possess a firearm pursuant to Section 76-10-503. I am also qualified under federal law as I explained in my original post because I will have a hunting license, which exempts me from the federal bar on non-resident aliens.

    So, usually a non-resident would be barred from getting a Utah CCW because they're not qualified to possess guns under federal law. But I will be, so I qualify under federal law and meet all the other requirements for good character.

    So far as I can see there's nothing in law that would allow Utah to deny me a CCW permit, even though their website implies (though, to be fair, doesn't specifically state that) citizenship is a requirement for non-Utah-residents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Macklin View Post
    Most American "students" are not rich and they get part-time work even if they have student loans and grants. As an English candidate for a PhD, you can and should get a job.
    I presume you are using a British student loan so don't want to screw the pooch until you have your sheepskin.
    I'm not rich either. Here in the UK I'd need to save up for years to be able to afford to do a Phd fulltime, there is no student loan or grant for education beyond undergraduate, but American universities are much better funded. Duke, for example, offers funding to 90% of its Phd students. That includes a full tuition waiver, a $17,000 a year stipend, and $2,000 of summer funding. I've looked at apartment rents in the area around campus and assuming other living costs are the same as in Britain (in reality I reckon they'll be lower) I'm pretty sure I can live on that.

    Conditional on receiving that funding, though, is that I'll be working up to 20 hours a week as a teaching or research assistant. This is normal in US universities from what I can tell, and I consider that part of my education - learning to teach and so on.

    If I need an additional part time job for financial reasons then I'll look into that, but I can't imagine that would allow me to get a green card. That requires the employer offering the job to get a labor certification from the Department of Labor, stating that an American could not be found to fill the position. If I'm stacking shelves at Walmart or serving coffee in a university cafe they're not going to be able to do that, since anyone could do those jobs.
    Last edited by lukem; 11-28-2010 at 09:24 PM.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BritStudent View Post
    How concealed is 'concealed'? (concealed being what I'd need to avoid, in order to keep it legal without a CCW permit) Could I wear the gun outside-the-waistband under a jacket or shirt thus concealing it from the rear and side, but leaving it visible from the front? Or do I need to keep it in 100% plain view e.g. OWB without a jacket, drop leg when wearing a jacket, etc?

    However, while that's all good to know, I'd much rather carry concealed if possible.

    How concealed is concealed? Concealed is concealed is concealed and generally you need a CCW (or a conceal-carry permit) to conceal your firearm on your person, whether it's concealed under one layer of clothing or 3 layers, in your hat, in your backpack or briefcase, or hiding in your hand. If it's concealed so that the general public cannot see it when looking at you then it's considered concealed.

    That said, the laws vary from state to state, and they vary from citizens to aliens. Everything I'm writing may not apply to you at all. It's up to you to do your own research, not rely on my words.

    Now, in Nevada, we can conceal our firearms in our vehicles while we drive without first obtaining and possessing a CCW. However, If do not have that CCW, and we conceal our firearms on our bodies while inside our vehicles, then we are committing a crime. Other states, such as California, do not like it's citizens having a firearm on your person or in the vehicle at all, open or concealed.

    That said, even though some states allow open carry, some businesses do not like it. It's their prerogative to refuse service to you and they can trespass you, meaning they will escort you out the door and bar you from patronizing their establishment until you are firearm-free. Again, here in Nevada, it's legal to open carry into a bank and into a casino, though most people won't do that.

    I'm not an LEO, but my personal recommendation is that you be careful where you open carry, and be doubly careful to not conceal anything, nothing, nowhere, no how, no time, nada, until you become very familiar with the laws of the state in which you intend to reside and the federal laws that govern you as an immigrant or a non-immigrant.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by gdcleanfun View Post
    How concealed is concealed? Concealed is concealed is concealed and generally you need a CCW (or a conceal-carry permit) to conceal your firearm on your person, whether it's concealed under one layer of clothing or 3 layers, in your hat, in your backpack or briefcase, or hiding in your hand. If it's concealed so that the general public cannot see it when looking at you then it's considered concealed.
    This is what I mean (photochop):



    Anyone I was talking with would be able to see it. People walking towards me on the street would be able to see it. But it wouldn't be visible from certain angles. Does that look like open carry? According to opencarry.org it is ok to open carry in a vehicle in NC.

    Another option I thought of apart from a drop leg holster, if belt carry with a jacket (11:30 o'clock or so) isn't acceptable would be to attach a holster to a shoulder bag like so:



    But like I say, hopefully I can get a CCW so I won't need to OC.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BritStudent View Post
    Now they say any U.S. citizen, but this is, I think, just because a non-citizen, non- resident getting one is such an unusual, perhaps unheard of situation. If you read the actual law for CCW permits in Utah there is no requirement for citizenship or residency. The law says they must issue an applicant a CCW if they are 21 years of age or older (I am), within 60 days, unless they can prove that the applicant is not of good character, with a list of things that satisfactorily demonstrate good character. Every item on the list applies to me. The only one concerning citizenship is:
    ...snipped some parts...sorry...
    Try applying in Florida...You do not have to be a resident there to apply and you do not have to be a citizen of the US either.
    (I think you have to be a resident of another state to qualify though...+ the usual qualifications e.g., CCW training certificates, etc.)
    "Don't let the door hit ya where the dawg shudda bit ya!"
    G'day and Glock
    GATEWAY SWIFT WING ST. LOUIS

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by BritStudent View Post
    This is what I mean (photochop):



    Anyone I was talking with would be able to see it. People walking towards me on the street would be able to see it. But it wouldn't be visible from certain angles. Does that look like open carry? According to opencarry.org it is ok to open carry in a vehicle in NC.

    Another option I thought of apart from a drop leg holster, if belt carry with a jacket (11:30 o'clock or so) isn't acceptable would be to attach a holster to a shoulder bag like so:



    But like I say, hopefully I can get a CCW so I won't need to OC.

    From the pictures you posted I would have to say that, in most locations in the US, those weapons would be too concealed to qualify as open carry and too visible to qualify as concealed carry. It seems that you want to walk a very thin line... one that's too thin even for citizens. Carrying in those manners will cause you grief from the authorities.

    The bag idea (picture 2) is just asking for someone to snatch and grab your piece.... among other things.
    "If guns cause crime, all mine are defective" -Ted Nugent

  10. #9
    North Carolina laws are screwed way up. You can possess and own a gun (as a non-immigrant) but your can't (legally) buy one in North Carolina. You have to be a citizen or a permanent resident alien (with a green card) to purchase. HOWEVER, you can travel to one of the gun shows in Virginia, or many of the flea markets) and buy a gun. You cannot buy one from a delaer, as you would have to fill out the 4473, but you can purchase one from an individual. This isn't illegal, just the way it is. Even if you purchase a handgun from a non-licensed person (private sale) you still have to get a permit from the N.C. sheriff, and will have to prove residency or citizenship.

    Now so far as carrying you gun, you can do that in North Carolina openly. We have no law prohibiting open carry of an unconcealed weapon. But you can't carry it in Cary, on school property (college) and other places indicated in the NC firearms laws.

    You won't be able to get a concealed handgun permit (in NC) without being a permanent resident alien or citizen. I don't know about other states permits. I know that you cannot get a non-resident Virginia permit unless you are a citizen or a permanent resident alien.

    If was gonna make a choice like yours, I'd go for ARIZONA. Vermont also allows open or concealed carry without any formal red tape. If you aren't a crook, you can open or concealed carry in Vermont.

    I'm not a lawyer, so double check the above before making any decisions. Open carrying in NC can get you some strange looks from others and some places might ask you to leave, but it is not illegal.









    .
    In the beginning, the patriot is a scarce man -- brave, hated, and scorned. But when his cause succeeds, the timid join him. For then, it costs nothing to be a patriot. -- Mark Twain

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RugerP345 View Post
    North Carolina laws are screwed way up. You can possess and own a gun (as a non-immigrant) but your can't (legally) buy one in North Carolina. You have to be a citizen or a permanent resident alien (with a green card) to purchase. HOWEVER, you can travel to one of the gun shows in Virginia, or many of the flea markets) and buy a gun. You cannot buy one from a delaer, as you would have to fill out the 4473, but you can purchase one from an individual. This isn't illegal, just the way it is. Even if you purchase a handgun from a non-licensed person (private sale) you still have to get a permit from the N.C. sheriff, and will have to prove residency or citizenship.

    Now so far as carrying you gun, you can do that in North Carolina openly. We have no law prohibiting open carry of an unconcealed weapon. But you can't carry it in Cary, on school property (college) and other places indicated in the NC firearms laws.

    You won't be able to get a concealed handgun permit (in NC) without being a permanent resident alien or citizen. I don't know about other states permits. I know that you cannot get a non-resident Virginia permit unless you are a citizen or a permanent resident alien.

    If was gonna make a choice like yours, I'd go for ARIZONA. Vermont also allows open or concealed carry without any formal red tape. If you aren't a crook, you can open or concealed carry in Vermont.

    I'm not a lawyer, so double check the above before making any decisions. Open carrying in NC can get you some strange looks from others and some places might ask you to leave, but it is not illegal.

    .
    It is a federal violation to but a handgun in a state different bfrom your residence unless it is shippoed to a dealer [FFL] in your state of residence for completion of paperwork.
    ATF Online - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
    The people think the Second Amendment protects their rights;
    Government sees an obstacle to be over-come.
    NRA Life since 1966

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